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  • Design Elements Own Design or Copy?

    As there is nobody around me, I can ask face to face i am gonna to aks you here.

    The question is, what is own design based on elementary design elements and what is to close to existing beadwork?

    Looking through Sioux Quill and Beadwork Design page 68, 69, 73,74, 77, 84 show design elements which can be combined and altered to yield a bead pattern.

    For example teepees and lightnings for belts or stripes.
    I am very fond of all blue colors, red, yellow.

    1 and 2 are identical patterns with color variation. I have more of that pattern in yet more color variations. 1 and 2 are modeled after the basic sketch for the lightning pattern of the above book.

    For counting rows and columns I use excel and the technical quality of the examples could be better.

    Click image for larger version

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    Click image for larger version

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    This one uses a teepee which in itself is a often used pattern. The green and blue tome are the grass and the sky.

    Click image for larger version

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    Do you regard such pattern as a copy or can you except, that so using a basic element although using out of the book that the design itself has come to my mind?

    I am still searching how to imagienate (dream of) a design which is really mine and me and remember it, when awaking. That is something which I lost too long ago as a little boy.

    I am on a quest about pattern for my gun case (flint lock), shooting bag, ball and belt pouches and mocassins though the unbeaded version seems better as an casual everyday wear. For mocs, I think I am on the right path to add a second (harder) sole which can be replaced when worn out.
    Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

    True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
    Black Elk

    “Tell me, and I will listen.
    Show me, and I will understand.
    Involve me, and I will learn.”
    Lakota Proverb

    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.
    Living one day at a time,
    Enjoying one moment at a time,
    Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
    (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

  • #2
    You will find that there are only so many ways to make a mountain design , tipi design , diamond , triangle , etc , etc... and only so many color combinations. You're in Germany , bead whatever you want.
    I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


    They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

    There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

    Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
    It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


    sigpic


    There's a chance you might not like me ,

    but there's a bigger

    chance I won't care

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you for your nice advise but that it is not as easy as it says.

      I do not simply want do what I wish. Than there would be no need to ask here.

      As I am wearing glasses all my life, in school I was provoked as owl. We have owls and I like owls. They are night birds which fits well to me. Asa little boy my Father told stories to get me asleep but Father started sleeping and the boy was half the night awake and joking.

      Other birds over here are several sort of ravens (rare), hawks (rare) and masses of crows. The city resembles in its name and old spoofed syllable of the German equivalent for crow (Kre). Crow being "Krähe" and imitates the sound which the bird makes.

      Designing beadwork which incorporates those birds may require applique stitch, I am not sure and that I have not done yet.

      The floral designs, although some a very beautiful, are not mine. I am found of geometrical patterns and animals. May be that is a habit from being exposed much to mathematical patterns of the digital new age.
      Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

      True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
      Black Elk

      “Tell me, and I will listen.
      Show me, and I will understand.
      Involve me, and I will learn.”
      Lakota Proverb

      God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
      Courage to change the things I can,
      And wisdom to know the difference.
      Living one day at a time,
      Enjoying one moment at a time,
      Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
      (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

      Comment


      • #4
        OK, I've been biting my tongue. But...

        First, do not assume all or even any Native person has read some particular book on beadwork. Most of us learn beading within our communities and families. We may never have looked at a book on beading.

        That said, I have read this book.

        Carrie Lyford's book takes elements out of designs on finished beadwork. For more than a few, you can match her sketches to pieces in museums. Using her design elements in some cases is copying. Plus, every Lakota fixated hobbist that I know has an early piece or two utilizing 'her' designs.

        As for traditional designs. For the moment, I'll put aside that as a non-Indian your work is not within my people's traditions. Tradition has a much to do with the use and spirit of a pieces as the composition. Native people are modern people. We do not slavishly reproduce the patterns of the past. We may have family designs, which we lovingly pass down. But, we also are influenced by the world around us. (I am still toying with the beaded purse inspired by phyllotaxis and the fibonacci sequence.)

        Perhaps you ought to look at what you're depicting in your work. I know some Lakota's who look askance at lightening bolts. And some Kiowas of my acquaintance would not take too kindly to your owls.

        Tell me please, are you a re-enactor -- people who dress up and imitate life in past eras?

        Comment


        • #5
          Owls are the birds of withdom and knowledge and the ravens or crows are the eyes and scouts in my thinking.

          The meaning of these birds has changed with christianity in order to override earlier believes. In other symbols of "savage" tribes, they have adopted to carry their message.

          Well I have a Problem with the members of the ground Crew of the Roman church which I have knewn over the years except for one Monk.

          The long answer to to your questions needs some days. To write that up in English will be difficult because those answers to your questions require to think in German and translate them into English. Will result in difficult understanding. Hopefully I get the long answer on Friday together. I am not retired yet and the real working life has become demanding time consuming hastily.
          Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

          True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
          Black Elk

          “Tell me, and I will listen.
          Show me, and I will understand.
          Involve me, and I will learn.”
          Lakota Proverb

          God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
          Courage to change the things I can,
          And wisdom to know the difference.
          Living one day at a time,
          Enjoying one moment at a time,
          Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
          (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

          Comment


          • #6
            There in lies your issue ! You are attempting to convert your way and your beliefs into ours and there is no comparison that will make sense to you. There are over 570 U.S. tribes and we all have our own belief system , although few are exactly the same.....in fact none are exactly the same !

            Just what is your interest in our cultures ? Why would you wish to learn about our designs and color combinations ?
            I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


            They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

            There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

            Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
            It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


            sigpic


            There's a chance you might not like me ,

            but there's a bigger

            chance I won't care

            Comment


            • #7
              Wenn man doch ein Indianer wäre, gleich bereit, und auf dem rennenden Pferde, schief in der Luft, immer wieder kurz erzitterte über dem zitternden Boden, bis man die Sporen ließ, denn es gab keine Sporen, bis man die Zügel wegwarf, denn es gab keine Zügel, und kaum das Land vor sich als glattgemähte Heide sah, schon ohne Pferdehals und Pferdekopf.

              -Franz Kafka, 1913. (from Wikipedia)

              Ich Bin Ein Indianer (article is in English)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by OLChemist View Post
                Wenn man doch ein Indianer wäre, gleich bereit, und auf dem rennenden Pferde, schief in der Luft, immer wieder kurz erzitterte über dem zitternden Boden, bis man die Sporen ließ, denn es gab keine Sporen, bis man die Zügel wegwarf, denn es gab keine Zügel, und kaum das Land vor sich als glattgemähte Heide sah, schon ohne Pferdehals und Pferdekopf.

                -Franz Kafka, 1913. (from Wikipedia)

                Ich Bin Ein Indianer (article is in English)
                Ich bin kein Indianer.

                Um Kafka zu zitieren sollte man Kafka in Deutsch interpretiren können. Das ist selbst unter uns mehr als umstritten. Kafka war Pflichtlektüre am Gymnasium und wir konnten uns nie einigen wie Kafka zu interpretieren ist. Die Meinung des Lehrers war dann per Ordre Mufti die am Ende "Richtige" Interpretation.

                PS: War Sie nicht. Es war seine Meinung, nicht meine.
                Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                Black Elk

                “Tell me, and I will listen.
                Show me, and I will understand.
                Involve me, and I will learn.”
                Lakota Proverb

                God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                Courage to change the things I can,
                And wisdom to know the difference.
                Living one day at a time,
                Enjoying one moment at a time,
                Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                Comment


                • #9
                  An older colleague, who studied back when they made scientists learn German, had to read your post to me. (I distrust computer translation programs.)

                  I get in trouble every time I have anything to do with Kafka. I think it started some time in Humanities 380, when an entire class period blew up into an argument about whether Gregor had become an actual roach or was just really depressed and filled with self-loathing. Then Dr. C. took off on about how the German word "really" meant unclean and concept of ritual uncleanliness in Judaism. Before we knew it, we were deep in the weeds, comparing the conceptional/cultural baggage word for unclean used in Koine Greek (Septuagint), Hebrew (Tanakh), Aramaic (Roman Judea), and modern English and German.

                  I hadn't read the dang story. So, I spent the first part of the class thanking my lucky stars we hadn't had a quiz, then wishing we had, because the pain of failure would have had the advantage of brevity. Fifty-five non-refundable minutes of my life spent praying for the bell to ring and vowing never to take another literature class from the prof who taught Biblical languages.

                  However, your point about Kafka and German, is exactly the point Wardancer was trying to make. Language and art have so much cultural baggage, of which we need to be aware.

                  "The Wish To Be a Red Indian

                  If one were only an Indian, instantly alert, and on a racing horse, leaning against the wind, kept on quivering jerkily over the quivering ground, until one shed one’s spurs, for there needed no spurs, threw away the reins, for there needed no reins, and hardly saw that the land before one was smoothly shorn heath when horse’s neck and head would be already gone."

                  Franz Kafka, 1913. (The quote I dug my grave with... Uhmm. That I posted above.)

                  I read the English translation of Kafka's "The Wish To Be a Red Indian" and I see a reductionist, romantic fantasy about Native people. But, I can see there is some element there that speaks to some aspect of the German experience in 1913. But being an American and a Native woman, I don't understand it.

                  Your experiences with our cultures will be the same.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If you ever see a German powwow, or a German powwow dancer, or a German singer, or a German drum group...do you see them as the true Indigenous people of Turtle Island?


                    Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


                    "When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

                    Mr. Rossie Freeman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This is going to be a long post. My English is not good enough to express my thought as clear as necessary.

                      The culture, spirit or religion is connected with emotions and that lets me think In German and will never come out as good English and will result in new misunderstanding. Makes my heart sick.

                      Talking about religion or spirit I have always regarded as dangerous. We have our experience since the 30 years war. In the name of religion or god every crime has up to day been justified.

                      Ol Chemical your idea of quoting Kafka making me to answer in German was a genius idea. I never understood Kafka. We did “The Jury”.

                      Your estimation that I will have the same problem with your culture as you with mine is simply true. I could live the rest of my live within your nation but would never understand it beyond a certain point. I requires to be a child living and educated up from the earliest moment within your culture.

                      I may understand certain issues but not comprehend them and there might be other issues which I do not understand but might comprehend.

                      Some things are very special relativ and some things are very relative special (Bad translation of a German joke on Einsteins Relativitätstheorie)

                      I did not assume that many native person have read that book. I hoped for one who would dare to answer. You did answer and for that thank you very much to you. Your peoples way of learning is obviously impossible in my situation. I can learn it only by books. And that is one dimensional and will lack peoples emotion.
                      Maybe more qualified native Americans should write books to reach those who can learn only by reading books and use them as a tool for education. Most books on native Americans seems to be written by white people and lack vital information.

                      As to Carrie Lyfords book, the pages 111 to 116 are obviously patterns from original pieces. The heading already says it.

                      But I assume that some other elements likewise are taken completely from a real historic piece. Page 109 and 110 look so and I assume that the pattern from side 110 might be from a pipe bag.

                      Pages 103 through 108 might be single element from historic piece. Which are from real pieces? That is a reason why I asked.

                      I assume that patterns in the other books are not better.
                      What I am missing in this book as well as in others is an explanation to the meaning ore in your words the use and spirit of a composition. A book written by a native person might overcome those missing dimension ore faults in the existing books and again can teach other people. If such a book exists, that should be be easy to find. And that would clarify what not to use.

                      Why do CrazCrow, Wandering Bull and the other trading posts sells such books instead of getting them enhanced um the above vital information? And they sell many other goods as well. Some is made in China, some is made in Czech, some is made in Germany and some is native American. I have seen War Shirts, pipe bags, pipes, headdresses.

                      Wardancer demands what my interest is. Would he answer me, if I would demand an answer from him why he uses something from our culture?

                      Let me quote Ohiyesa from page 59, the starting page of his chapter about Rain in the Face.

                      “It had been my experience that you cannot induce an Indian to tell a story, or even his own name, by asking him directly. Friend, I said, even if a man is on hot trail, he stops for a smoke! ...”

                      I will tell you two stories of mine.

                      I have searched for my ancestors because I wanted to know where I come from and were I am. I come back until 1790 within the direct line of the family. One information may have been willingly falsified on the official birth records that there is a father named who was not the biological father.

                      My grand uncle Rudolf was the only male from the male side of the family who ever was a soldier in more than 200 years. He died at the of World War II from sickness far from home and alone and is buried there. We have no photo, not a single item from him left because my great grandmother in here grieve about losing that son burned everything from him. My mother once told me, long after grandfather had died, that he had said her that I look like Rudolf.

                      As said in a post elsewhere in another thread, I live in a region which was a crossed by people and war parties from north to south and west to east and back for thousands of years. We once belonged to the Roman Empire, we have seen the Vikings coming upriver, we have seen the French under Napoleon and up to 1750 we belonged to the Low Countries and were given away to Prussia.

                      In World War II my grand and grand grand uncles fought in the German, the Polish, the Dutch, the French and the Russian Army. Figuratively they tried to kill each other. That makes my heart sick and tired.

                      I have due to my families history no need for war at all but if necessary I stand up according to sis vis pacem para bellum for my family.

                      What I am ? Russian, French, Dutch, Polish or German?

                      As a German please never call me a Bavarian or a Badenser, a Württemberger, a Saxon, a Franke and lot of more former tribes which lived in ancient times in what is called Germany. I am none of that.

                      If a hear the vocal songs of the cossacks, my heart is pleased. I like that songs. If I hear some Prussian march music my heart is with it, especially with Prussians Gloria but it must be played the old way not the f..g political correct way of today.

                      I accept what my heart says, you have interest in. I may search for rational reason if asked for example why do like shooting muzzleloader or the bow. I like it not for rational reasons but because my heart says I like it and I accept it as given.

                      I take part in muzzleloader competition shooting. The rules prohibit any traditional clothing. (Modern leather shooting jacket could be regarded as traditional clothing because in its today form we use it already 60 years. That could make it traditional if you want to.)

                      I like my short flint lock rifle. It is a model which is a rifle made from German rifle smiths in America and has been used by the mountain man, fur trader and native Americans. It should be carried in a rifle case mad of buckskin and that should be beaded in a way a white trader might have traded from a tribe. Ball bags and other bags for all the things needed for competition shooting should match the rifle case. At least that is not prohibited by the rules.

                      I have gone to workshops on medival crafts and stone age on different levels of difficulty. Making Turn shoes (part of the technique is similar to making moccasins), long bow, cross bow, sewing shirts (tunika) and under trousers. Flint stone arrow heads, stone age zippo.

                      Turn shoes and moccasins use very similar techniques but are off different making. And making flint stone arrow heads, do you think your native American stone arrow heads are so much different from those, we find over here five thousand years old or that the technique to make them is very different?

                      The geometrical beadwork is simply beautiful. It is a great craft. It requires to concentrate on what you are doing, give you joy in just doing it, give you a good feeling accomplishing a beautiful piece. It is no difficulty to do beadwork with non native patterns but I would look at it as ignoring its heritage of native American tradition and that be being dishonorable.

                      What do I want to depict?

                      Myself admiring your people and their craftsmanship in beadwork with elements which I can understand and comprehend, which as a composition is not a copy of a historic or contemporary family piece, is not offending and yet does not neglect its binding to its historic roots. What I white trader might have traded from your people.

                      I do not go to German pow wows. I may never make the journey into the US and by miracle if I would do, it would be the journey of my life and much too short. I would like visit a real native American pow wow. I would suffice to watch, listen, learn and keep my mouth shut. May be buy something made by native Americans.

                      May be I do not belong in this place and should leave it to you.
                      Live long and may piece with you all the time.
                      Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                      True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                      Black Elk

                      “Tell me, and I will listen.
                      Show me, and I will understand.
                      Involve me, and I will learn.”
                      Lakota Proverb

                      God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                      Courage to change the things I can,
                      And wisdom to know the difference.
                      Living one day at a time,
                      Enjoying one moment at a time,
                      Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                      (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Joe's Dad View Post
                        If you ever see a German powwow, or a German powwow dancer, or a German singer, or a German drum group...do you see them as the true Indigenous people of Turtle Island?
                        No.
                        Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                        True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                        Black Elk

                        “Tell me, and I will listen.
                        Show me, and I will understand.
                        Involve me, and I will learn.”
                        Lakota Proverb

                        God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                        Courage to change the things I can,
                        And wisdom to know the difference.
                        Living one day at a time,
                        Enjoying one moment at a time,
                        Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                        (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          second try to submit

                          This is going to be a long post. My English is not good enough to express my thought as clear as necessary.

                          The culture, spirit or religion is connected with emotions and that lets me think In German and will never come out as good English and will result in new misunderstanding. Makes my heart sick. Talking about religion or spirit I have always regarded as dangerous. We have our experience since the 30 years war. In the name of religion or god every crime has up to day been justified.

                          Ol Chemist your idea of quoting Kafka making me to answer in German was a genius idea. I never understood Kafka. We did “The Jury”.

                          Your estimation that I will have the same problem with your culture as you with mine is simply true. I could live the rest of my live within your nation but would never understand it beyond a certain point. I requires to be a child living and educated up from the earliest moment within your culture.

                          I may understand certain issues but not comprehend them and their might be other issues which I do not understand but might comprehend. Some things are very special relativ and some things are very relative special (Bad translaton of a German joke on Einsteins Relativitätstheorie)

                          I did not assume that many native person have read that book. I hoped for one who would dare to answer. You did answer and for that thank you very much to you. Your peoples way of learning is obviously impossible in my situation. I can learn it only by books.

                          That is one dimensional and will lack peoples emotion.
                          Maybe more qualified native Americans should write books to reach those who can learn only by reading books and use them as a tool for education. Most books on native Americans seems to be written by white people and lack vital information.

                          As to Carrie Lyfords book, the pages 111 to 116 are obviously patterns from original pieces. The heading already says it. But I assume that some other elements likewise are taken completely from a real historic piece. Page 109 and 110 look so and I assume that the pattern from side 110 might be from a pipe bag. Pages 103 through 108 might be single element from historic piece. Which are from real pieces? That is a reason why I asked. I assume that patterns in the other books are not better.

                          What I am missing in this book as well as in others is an explanation to the meaning ore in your words the use and spirit of a composition. A book written by a native person might overcome those missing dimension ore faults in the existing books and again can teach other people. If such a book exists, that should be easy to find. And that would clarify what not to use.

                          Why do CrazyCrow, Wandering Bull and the other trading posts sells such books instead of getting them enhanced for the above vital information? And they sell many other goods as well. Some is made in China, some is made in Czech, some is made in Germany and some is native American. I have seen War Shirts, pipe bags, pipes, headdresses offered by what seems to be native American. A war shirt must be earned.

                          Wardancer demands what my interest is. Would he answer me, if I would demand an answer from him why he uses something from our culture? Why adopted so many whites in the beginning (1700) to the Indian way of life?

                          Let me quote Ohiyesa from page 59, the starting page of his chapter about Rain in the Face.

                          “It had been my experience that you cannot induce an Indian to tell a story, or even his own name, by asking him directly. Friend, I said, even if a man is on hot trail, he stops for a smoke! ...”

                          I will tell you two stories of mine.
                          I have searched for my ancestors because I wanted to know where I come from and were I am. I come back until 1790 within the direct line of the family. One information may have been willingly falsified on the official birth records that there is a father named who was not the biological father.

                          My grand uncle Rudolf was the only male from the male side of the family who ever was a soldier in more than 200 years. He died at the of World War II from sickness far from home and alone and is buried there. We have no photo, not a single item from him left because my great grandmother in here grieve about losing that son burned everything from him. My mother once told me, long after grandfather had died, that he had said her that I look like Rudolf.

                          As said in a post elsewhere in another thread, I live in a region which was a crossed by people and war parties form north to south and west to east and back for thousands of years. We once belonged to the Roman Empire, we have seen the Vikings coming upriver, we have seen the French under Napoleon and up to 1750 we belonged to the Low Countries.

                          In World War II my grand and grand grand uncle fought in the German, the Polish, the Dutch, the French and the Russian Army. Figuratively they tried to kill each other. That makes my heart sick and tired. What I am ? Russian, French, Dutch, Polish or German? As a German please never call me a Bavarian or a Badenser, a Württemberger, a Saxon, a Franke and lot of more former tribes which lived in ancient times in what is called Germany.

                          I have due to my families history no need for war at all but I stand up according to sis vis pacem para bellum for my family.

                          If a hear the vocal songs of the cossacks, my heart is pleased. If a here some Prussian march music my heart is with it, especially with Prussians Gloria but it must be played the old way not the f..g political correct way of today. I accept what my heart says it is beautiful, you have interest in. I may search for rational reason if asked for example why do like shooting muzzleloader or the bow. I like it not for rational reasons but because my heart says I like it and I accept it as given.

                          I take part in muzzleloader competition shooting. The rules prohibit any traditional clothing. (Modern leather shooting jacket could be regarded as traditional clothing because in its today form we use it already 60 years. That could make it traditional if you want to.) I like my short flint lock rifle. It is a model which is a rifle made from German rifle smiths in America and has been used by the mountain man, fur trader and native Americans. It should be carried in a rifle case mad of buckskin and that should be beaded in a way a white trader might have traded from a tribe. Ball bags and other bags for all the things needed for competition shooting should match the rifle case. At least that is not prohibited by the rules.

                          I have gone to workshops on medival crafts and stone age on different levels of difficulty. Making Turn shoes (part of the technique is similar to making moccasins), long bow, cross bow, sewing shirts (tunika) and under trousers. Flint stone arrow heads, stone age zippo.

                          Turn shoes and moccasins use very similar techniques but are off different making. And making flint stone arrow heads, do you think your native American stone arrow heads are so much different from those, we find over here five thousand years old or that the technique to make them is very different?

                          The geometrical beadwork is simply beautiful. It is a great craft. It requires to concentrate on what you are doing, give you joy in just doing it, give you a good feeling accomplishing a beautiful piece. It is no difficulty to do beadwork with non native patterns but I would look at it as ignoring its heritage of native American tradition and that be being dishonorable.

                          What do I want to depict?
                          Myself admiring your people and their craftsmanship in beadwork with elements which I can understand and comprehend, which as a composition is not a copy of a historic or contemporary family piece, is not offending and yet does not neglect its binding to its historic roots. What I white trader might have traded from your people .

                          I do not go to German pow wows. I may never make the journey into the US and by miracle if I would do, it would be the journey of my life and much too short. I would like visit a real native American pow wow. I would suffice to watch, listen to learn and keep my mouth shut if.

                          May be I do not belong in this place but should leave it to you.
                          Live long and may piece with you all your time.
                          Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                          True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                          Black Elk

                          “Tell me, and I will listen.
                          Show me, and I will understand.
                          Involve me, and I will learn.”
                          Lakota Proverb

                          God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                          Courage to change the things I can,
                          And wisdom to know the difference.
                          Living one day at a time,
                          Enjoying one moment at a time,
                          Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                          (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wardancer View Post
                            Just what is your interest in our cultures ? Why would you wish to learn about our designs and color combinations ?
                            Originally posted by Broken Arrow View Post
                            This is going to be a long post. My English is not good enough to express my thought as clear as necessary.

                            The culture, spirit or religion is connected with emotions and that lets me think In German and will never come out as good English and will result in new misunderstanding. Makes my heart sick. Talking about religion or spirit I have always regarded as dangerous. We have our experience since the 30 years war. In the name of religion or god every crime has up to day been justified.

                            Ol Chemist your idea of quoting Kafka making me to answer in German was a genius idea. I never understood Kafka. We did “The Jury”.

                            Your estimation that I will have the same problem with your culture as you with mine is simply true. I could live the rest of my live within your nation but would never understand it beyond a certain point. I requires to be a child living and educated up from the earliest moment within your culture.

                            I may understand certain issues but not comprehend them and their might be other issues which I do not understand but might comprehend. Some things are very special relativ and some things are very relative special (Bad translaton of a German joke on Einsteins Relativitätstheorie)

                            I did not assume that many native person have read that book. I hoped for one who would dare to answer. You did answer and for that thank you very much to you. Your peoples way of learning is obviously impossible in my situation. I can learn it only by books.

                            That is one dimensional and will lack peoples emotion.
                            Maybe more qualified native Americans should write books to reach those who can learn only by reading books and use them as a tool for education. Most books on native Americans seems to be written by white people and lack vital information.


                            As to Carrie Lyfords book, the pages 111 to 116 are obviously patterns from original pieces. The heading already says it. But I assume that some other elements likewise are taken completely from a real historic piece. Page 109 and 110 look so and I assume that the pattern from side 110 might be from a pipe bag. Pages 103 through 108 might be single element from historic piece. Which are from real pieces? That is a reason why I asked. I assume that patterns in the other books are not better.

                            What I am missing in this book as well as in others is an explanation to the meaning ore in your words the use and spirit of a composition. A book written by a native person might overcome those missing dimension ore faults in the existing books and again can teach other people. If such a book exists, that should be easy to find. And that would clarify what not to use.

                            Why do CrazyCrow, Wandering Bull and the other trading posts sells such books instead of getting them enhanced for the above vital information? And they sell many other goods as well. Some is made in China, some is made in Czech, some is made in Germany and some is native American. I have seen War Shirts, pipe bags, pipes, headdresses offered by what seems to be native American. A war shirt must be earned.

                            Wardancer demands what my interest is. Would he answer me, if I would demand an answer from him why he uses something from our culture? Why adopted so many whites in the beginning (1700) to the Indian way of life?

                            Let me quote Ohiyesa from page 59, the starting page of his chapter about Rain in the Face.

                            “It had been my experience that you cannot induce an Indian to tell a story, or even his own name, by asking him directly. Friend, I said, even if a man is on hot trail, he stops for a smoke! ...”

                            I will tell you two stories of mine.
                            I have searched for my ancestors because I wanted to know where I come from and were I am. I come back until 1790 within the direct line of the family. One information may have been willingly falsified on the official birth records that there is a father named who was not the biological father.

                            My grand uncle Rudolf was the only male from the male side of the family who ever was a soldier in more than 200 years. He died at the of World War II from sickness far from home and alone and is buried there. We have no photo, not a single item from him left because my great grandmother in here grieve about losing that son burned everything from him. My mother once told me, long after grandfather had died, that he had said her that I look like Rudolf.

                            As said in a post elsewhere in another thread, I live in a region which was a crossed by people and war parties form north to south and west to east and back for thousands of years. We once belonged to the Roman Empire, we have seen the Vikings coming upriver, we have seen the French under Napoleon and up to 1750 we belonged to the Low Countries.

                            In World War II my grand and grand grand uncle fought in the German, the Polish, the Dutch, the French and the Russian Army. Figuratively they tried to kill each other. That makes my heart sick and tired. What I am ? Russian, French, Dutch, Polish or German? As a German please never call me a Bavarian or a Badenser, a Württemberger, a Saxon, a Franke and lot of more former tribes which lived in ancient times in what is called Germany.

                            I have due to my families history no need for war at all but I stand up according to sis vis pacem para bellum for my family.

                            If a hear the vocal songs of the cossacks, my heart is pleased. If a here some Prussian march music my heart is with it, especially with Prussians Gloria but it must be played the old way not the f..g political correct way of today. I accept what my heart says it is beautiful, you have interest in. I may search for rational reason if asked for example why do like shooting muzzleloader or the bow. I like it not for rational reasons but because my heart says I like it and I accept it as given.

                            I take part in muzzleloader competition shooting. The rules prohibit any traditional clothing. (Modern leather shooting jacket could be regarded as traditional clothing because in its today form we use it already 60 years. That could make it traditional if you want to.) I like my short flint lock rifle. It is a model which is a rifle made from German rifle smiths in America and has been used by the mountain man, fur trader and native Americans. It should be carried in a rifle case mad of buckskin and that should be beaded in a way a white trader might have traded from a tribe. Ball bags and other bags for all the things needed for competition shooting should match the rifle case. At least that is not prohibited by the rules.

                            I have gone to workshops on medival crafts and stone age on different levels of difficulty. Making Turn shoes (part of the technique is similar to making moccasins), long bow, cross bow, sewing shirts (tunika) and under trousers. Flint stone arrow heads, stone age zippo.

                            Turn shoes and moccasins use very similar techniques but are off different making. And making flint stone arrow heads, do you think your native American stone arrow heads are so much different from those, we find over here five thousand years old or that the technique to make them is very different?

                            The geometrical beadwork is simply beautiful. It is a great craft. It requires to concentrate on what you are doing, give you joy in just doing it, give you a good feeling accomplishing a beautiful piece. It is no difficulty to do beadwork with non native patterns but I would look at it as ignoring its heritage of native American tradition and that be being dishonorable.

                            What do I want to depict?
                            Myself admiring your people and their craftsmanship in beadwork with elements which I can understand and comprehend, which as a composition is not a copy of a historic or contemporary family piece, is not offending and yet does not neglect its binding to its historic roots. What I white trader might have traded from your people .

                            I do not go to German pow wows. I may never make the journey into the US and by miracle if I would do, it would be the journey of my life and much too short. I would like visit a real native American pow wow. I would suffice to watch, listen to learn and keep my mouth shut if.

                            May be I do not belong in this place but should leave it to you.
                            Live long and may piece with you all your time.

                            First thing is misunderstanding my question ! I do not "Demand" anything. I was merely curious as to your motivation. There are thousands and thousands of folk who use our cultures as a hobby and we do get irritated at SOME simply because of the stereotypical crap that they come up with in a feeble attempt at copying or imitating some portion of what they perceive as "Indian Ways".

                            Over here there are those who do re-enactments and rendezvous. Typically pre 1840 time period in clothing and accoutrements. I have attended a few and used to shoot a flintlock rifle and pistol. Fun , but not entirely accurate !

                            You should attend a German powwow. It might be very interesting ! Some of their activities are quite accurate in many ways. I find some of it rather humorous how they try so hard to be ....us !

                            You should hang around here and ask questions ! We've been nice and haven't beat up up too bad. We have some very educated and some like me , who are not overly educated. We are not all full-bloods , half-bloods or even quarter-bloods ! Some are really thin bloods and some hobbiests. There is a good mix.
                            I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


                            They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

                            There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

                            Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
                            It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


                            sigpic


                            There's a chance you might not like me ,

                            but there's a bigger

                            chance I won't care

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I am going to sound harsh. Some of what I's going to say is harsh. But, if I didn't want to try to communicate, I won't be writing long posts.

                              Originally posted by Broken Arrow View Post
                              .. Some things are very special relativ and some things are very relative special (Bad translaton of a German joke on Einsteins Relativitätstheorie)
                              I recognized it. You may have figured out that I'm a physical chemist. I tell bad science jokes, too.


                              Heisenberg and Schrödinger are driving in a car and they get pulled over. The police officer asks: "Do you know how fast you were going?"

                              Heisenberg says, "Well, not really, but I can tell you exactly where I was."

                              The officer thinks that this peculiar response is grounds for a search. He finds a dead cat in the trunk and he says: "Do you know that there's a dead cat in your trunk?"

                              Schrödinger replies, "Well, I do now!"


                              Good to see you have a sense of humor. It will get you far in Indian Country. We tease hard.


                              Originally posted by Broken Arrow View Post
                              Maybe more qualified native Americans should write books to reach those who can learn only by reading books and use them as a tool for education. Most books on native Americans seems to be written by white people and lack vital information.
                              There are many books written by Native peoples.

                              Here we have a collision of worldviews. Our histories and cultures are by and large not in books, I'll exclude the Cherokee for the moment, since they developed and utilized their own system of writing within their own language and culture, and for their own uses. Our cultures by and large have very different modes of transmission of knowledge. We have different ideas about intellectual property. This ideas are rooted in our understandings of how the universe works.

                              Many teachings within our cultures are restricted to those within our culture and maybe only those who are qualified to get them. And there is no hard, bright line separating sacred and secular in many of our cultures. So, things which might seem to have no religious/spiritual component in the western world, do in ours. These things we guard jealously.

                              Think about your culture. Is there a book telling you how to make authentic German Scherenschnitte or Bergmannsfigur? I could make a miner's angel. I'm a good enough craftsman. I could make an exact replica of one my mother's Volga German immigrant neighbors gave her for Christmas when she was a child. But it would lack the creative spark of the real thing. No book could teach to me create this item in its cultural context.

                              This isn't about race. It's about being part of a community and tradition. I know many a non-Indian family member who makes regalia for their Native relative. What they make, I consider authentic. For they are creating it within the cultural context and kinship connections that animate Native life.

                              I know hobs, who do meticulous research. The read books, travel to distant museums, study pictures. They produce exquisitely crafted pieces. They get antique beads. They brain tan. They find exactly the right species of wood to smoke the hides. They find exact color matches for ancient earth pigments. But their pieces are dead.

                              I have two parfleche bags hanging in the dining room. One is painstakingly pounded elk rawhide. With rabbit skin glue fixed, earth paint designs. The techniques used to produce it, were absolutely faithful to 18th century Cheyenne technology. It is a magnificent piece. The other is a tiny bag. Made with somewhat shiny, Tandy Leather cow rawhide. It's painted with modern acrylics. The color blocks are edged with black lines drawn by a Sharpie marker. It was made by a Cheyenne teenager, who was trying to earn money for a car.

                              White people love the large elk hide bag. It fits their idea of "Indian" art. Indian people are drawn to the small bag and ignore the other. They sense the young girl, a link in a chain of artists who used the materials at hand. The spirit of her bag is true to the form and purpose of these bags.


                              Originally posted by Broken Arrow View Post
                              What I am missing in this book as well as in others is an explanation to the meaning ore in your words the use and spirit of a composition. A book written by a native person might overcome those missing dimension ore faults in the existing books and again can teach other people. If such a book exists, that should be easy to find. And that would clarify what not to use.

                              Why do CrazyCrow, Wandering Bull and the other trading posts sells such books instead of getting them enhanced for the above vital information?
                              Maybe our art and our religion are something we're not eager to share. I've heard it said: "The white man is like a raccoon. What he can't eat or tear up, he defecates on." After everything that has happened to our peoples, give us a reason we should be willing to teach the colonizer's children how to make our art forms?

                              Now, that said many of us are more accommodating. I'm a softie. I've taught non-Indians who've showed up on my porch and had the right attitude. Some even survived :)

                              Originally posted by Broken Arrow View Post
                              Wardancer demands what my interest is. Would he answer me, if I would demand an answer from him why he uses something from our culture? Why adopted so many whites in the beginning (1700) to the Indian way of life?
                              Do you have any idea how tired we get of hearing how if we don't want to share the precious remains of our cultures that we should give up jeans, horses, pickups and antibiotics?

                              More collision of worldviews.

                              One: We weren't given a choice about participating in the dominant culture. (In English "dominant culture" is a sociological term that refers the mainstream Euro-American institutions, manners and mores.) We live utterly surrounded. In many cases, our traditional economies are destroyed. Should we let our children starve to remian "pure"?

                              Two: Most of the items that I suspect you would point Wardancer's using are mass produced commodities. He is not asking to be given the means of making these items -- i.e. he's buying and using an iPhone not making one.

                              Having a long term relationship with my patent attorney, I can tell you that the power of the legal system of every western country acts to restrict and punish unauthorized use of intellectual property. You have patent, copyright, and trade secret laws. We don't. And our intellectual property is plundered with little regard. Our legal and moral frameworks do not have standing in your systems.

                              Why did we adopt whites? Because humans form bonds. Kinship is what makes us civilized. People make friends, people form alliances, people fall into love and lust. The difference in those relationships is we choose. We are the gatekeepers of our families and communities, not you.

                              If you understand that, then there is a chance for us to get along.

                              Comment

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