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  • How many beads in rows for lazy stitch?

    WD's personal recommendation is

    Originally posted by wardancer View Post
    I use size 11 czech beads , but that's just personal preference. 7 on a row , Cheyenne style lazy stich. It lays flatter.

    Consider a pattern which will require 11,13,15,17,19 or 21 beads.
    All rows seven beads that is two rows of seven beads for an 11 or 13 bead pattern and three rows for a 15,17,19 or 21 bead pattern?

    Than there are except for the 21 bead pattern background color beads part of the pattern?


    There is something else I observed and don't have a clue to the considerations to do in this way. The circumferential pattern on a moc is vertical while the other rows on the upper are horizontal if one looks from the toe.

    Mocs and their beading have a long tradition and I have not seen an example where it is done otherwise in lazy stitch.
    Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

    True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
    Black Elk

    “Tell me, and I will listen.
    Show me, and I will understand.
    Involve me, and I will learn.”
    Lakota Proverb

    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.
    Living one day at a time,
    Enjoying one moment at a time,
    Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
    (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

  • #2
    If I'm doing something small . like baby or toddler mocs , sometimes I only use 5 per row. If I'm filling in an area already completed on 2 sides I will go as many as 9 , but if it takes more than 9 I just make a row of 5 and a row of 6....or 5 + 5 , 7+5 , split the difference. In my opinion once you go past 9 your beads will sag once the thread stretches.And I've never found a thread that doesn't stretch ! Also , I do Cheyenne style lazy stitch , different than Lakota style !
    I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


    They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

    There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

    Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
    It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


    sigpic


    There's a chance you might not like me ,

    but there's a bigger

    chance I won't care

    Comment


    • #3
      It isn't a good idea to get more beads per lane than 9. It gets too sloppy looking and is prone to snagging. Having a lane with one more or one less bead is not uncommon at all.

      Originally posted by Broken Arrow View Post
      There is something else I observed and don't have a clue to the considerations to do in this way. The circumferential pattern on a moc is vertical while the other rows on the upper are horizontal if one looks from the toe.

      Mocs and their beading have a long tradition and I have not seen an example where it is done otherwise in lazy stitch.
      Not following the shape of the edge on a mocc. What an odd idea, LOL. It won't even look like a beaded mocc.

      My point is, like all artistic forms, tribal styles of beadwork have their stylistic conventions. These are thing defined by both the use and what "looks right." These conventions arise from practical and esthetic considerations. It's a little like asking why a Pieta always has Mary and Jesus's dead body; that's what the form requires to be a Pieta.

      Among my people beadwork descends from quill work. Many of quillwork's conventions were transferred directly to beadwork. The contrasting lane of circumferential design on moccs is one of these. I suspect that the reason for the direction change in quillwork is that it offers some resistance to the snagging and stresses during walking. But, also it is esthetically satisfying to surround the foot with a band of a differing direction and pattern, like the contrast of the sky touching the earth.

      Quilled moccs

      Quilled baby moccs

      Quilled moccs

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by wardancer View Post
        If I'm doing something small . like baby or toddler mocs , sometimes I only use 5 per row. If I'm filling in an area already completed on 2 sides I will go as many as 9 , but if it takes more than 9 I just make a row of 5 and a row of 6....or 5 + 5 , 7+5 , split the difference. In my opinion once you go past 9 your beads will sag once the thread stretches.And I've never found a thread that doesn't stretch ! Also , I do Cheyenne style lazy stitch , different than Lakota style !

        You saved the day.

        Then one row 7 beads and the other row 6 beads for a total of 13 beads for the pattern. With 13 beads the pattern looks better, the proportions of the elements than seems just to be right. 9 Beads looks wrong.

        I take your word on the nine beads and the stretch of thread.

        I know, that I know only tiny bits. I only know the lazy stitch which is described in those books you get a Crazy Crow. In those books nobody distinguishes between Cheyenne and Lakota lazy stitch or may eyes are already too bad to recognize.
        Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

        True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
        Black Elk

        “Tell me, and I will listen.
        Show me, and I will understand.
        Involve me, and I will learn.”
        Lakota Proverb

        God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
        Courage to change the things I can,
        And wisdom to know the difference.
        Living one day at a time,
        Enjoying one moment at a time,
        Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
        (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by OLChemist View Post
          Having a lane with one more or one less bead is not uncommon at all.
          Saves the day really. I have not seen enough originals to recognize.

          Originally posted by OLChemist View Post
          Not following the shape of the edge on a mocc. What an odd idea, LOL. It won't even look like a beaded mocc.
          Perhaps someone tried a very long time ago and ended up with what you argue below.

          Originally posted by OLChemist View Post
          My point is, like all artistic forms, tribal styles of beadwork have their stylistic conventions. These are thing defined by both the use and what "looks right." These conventions arise from practical and esthetic considerations. It's a little like asking why a Pieta always has Mary and Jesus's dead body; that's what the form requires to be a Pieta.
          That is as close as it can be. This it "looks right" is convincing.


          Originally posted by OLChemist View Post
          Many of quillwork's conventions were transferred directly to beadwork.

          I suspect that the reason for the direction change in quillwork is that it offers some resistance to the snagging and stresses during walking.

          But, also it is esthetically satisfying to surround the foot with a band of a differing direction and pattern, like the contrast of the sky touching the earth.

          Quilled moccs
          Looking at the last example, I assume that the esthetic considerations are the more decisive factor.
          Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

          True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
          Black Elk

          “Tell me, and I will listen.
          Show me, and I will understand.
          Involve me, and I will learn.”
          Lakota Proverb

          God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
          Courage to change the things I can,
          And wisdom to know the difference.
          Living one day at a time,
          Enjoying one moment at a time,
          Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
          (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

          Comment


          • #6
            It is my understanding that the differentiation between Cheyenne style and Lakota style is the placement of the stitch relative to the previous lane of beadwork. In Cheyenne style, the thread is stitched through the hide behind/beneath the prior row. In Lakota, the stitch is placed in the same line as the prior row.

            The Cheyenne style stitch placement tensions the new row against the prior row. This has the effect of making the beadwork less humped, although this is not the only factor determining how humped the lanes are.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #7
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              Originally posted by OLChemist View Post
              It is my understanding that the differentiation between Cheyenne style and Lakota style is the placement of the stitch relative to the previous lane of beadwork. In Cheyenne style, the thread is stitched through the hide behind/beneath the prior row. In Lakota, the stitch is placed in the same line as the prior row.

              The Cheyenne style stitch placement tensions the new row against the prior row. This has the effect of making the beadwork less humped, although this is not the only factor determining how humped the lanes are.
              Cheyenne style lazy stitch doesn't "stitch" on both ends ! First row does , but the second row hooks the threads on the first row. It only causes a problem if the first row of beads break ! LOL In the pic you can see I sew down the first row. the other rows will"hook" to that row.
              Attached Files
              Last edited by wardancer; 05-18-2017, 10:43 AM.
              I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


              They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

              There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

              Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
              It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


              sigpic


              There's a chance you might not like me ,

              but there's a bigger

              chance I won't care

              Comment


              • #8


                Such valuable explanations are worth to be saved for the future in redundant ways as a collection of guides in an practical sequence.

                I assume that the thread you use is not endless. Or what length of thread has been found to be practical?

                Beginning the second rows, the thread is first tied to the buckskin and then hooked to or through a last bead of a row of the first lanes?

                I looks as if you have doubled the thread. On beads size ten Nymo D goes at least four times through the hole of the bead. Sometimes not.

                If the thread of the first row breaks you'll have a little problem.
                Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                Black Elk

                “Tell me, and I will listen.
                Show me, and I will understand.
                Involve me, and I will learn.”
                Lakota Proverb

                God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                Courage to change the things I can,
                And wisdom to know the difference.
                Living one day at a time,
                Enjoying one moment at a time,
                Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by wardancer View Post
                  Cheyenne style lazy stitch doesn't "stitch" on both ends ! First row does , but the second row hooks the threads on the first row.
                  OH! Now I understand.

                  Lordy, you might be sterner stuff than I to turn moccs stitched that way, LOL.

                  WD, pretty, pretty, btw.
                  Last edited by OLChemist; 05-18-2017, 03:04 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    10/0's! Boy, you're beadin' with truck tires, LOL.

                    This is the way this wimp, who has to have her beads firmly attached the hide on both ends, does it.

                    On 11/0's I use doubled D nymo with lots of wax. I cut a piece about twice as long as my forearm. I don't like to use too long a piece. Even waxed, the thread frays as you work and if your hide is stiff or you're using canvas, if can get pretty ratty by the end. Besides, smaller sections between knots limits the amount of loss if a thread breaks or gets cut while in use.

                    Inside the lane, underneath where I'm going to bead, I run the needle under the hide for about a 1/4", at a distance of roughly 1/2" from where I want to start my new thread. I tie a knot through a section of hide, fastening the thread to the skin. I do this a second time, moving to almost where I'm going to start. I trim the "tail" flush with the hide. Finally, I bring my needle up through the hide to the starting point.

                    At the end of the thread, I repeat the same knotting procedure. If I'm at the end of the lane, I run the thread and knots under the row.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by OLChemist View Post

                      On 11/0's I use doubled D nymo with lots of wax. I cut a piece about twice as long as my forearm. I don't like to use too long a piece. Even waxed, the thread frays as you work and if your hide is stiff or you're using canvas, if can get pretty ratty by the end. Besides, smaller sections between knots limits the amount of loss if a thread breaks or gets cut while in use.

                      Inside the lane, underneath where I'm going to bead, I run the needle under the hide for about a 1/4", at a distance of roughly 1/2" from where I want to start my new thread. I tie a knot through a section of hide, fastening the thread to the skin. I do this a second time, moving to almost where I'm going to start. I trim the "tail" flush with the hide. Finally, I bring my needle up through the hide to the starting point.

                      At the end of the thread, I repeat the same knotting procedure. If I'm at the end of the lane, I run the thread and knots under the row.
                      same , same ! When I end my thread I run it on under the hide , into the center of the beading lane . Then I'll tack a couple stitches overlapping then trim it close and melt with a lighter. Same as a knot only lazier ! LOL The beads hide it. When I get all done I try to work the thread under to an edge or inside so it doesn't show.
                      I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


                      They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

                      There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

                      Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
                      It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


                      sigpic


                      There's a chance you might not like me ,

                      but there's a bigger

                      chance I won't care

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oh , that pic is part of a set I made last year for a guy up in The Upper Peninsula, Michigan. Tradish guy ! I did cuffs first , then armbands , then side tabs , then mocs !
                        http://forums.powwows.com/1559034-post841.html
                        http://forums.powwows.com/1560335-post855.html
                        http://forums.powwows.com/1586572-post898.html
                        http://forums.powwows.com/1592594-post911.html
                        I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


                        They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

                        There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

                        Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
                        It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


                        sigpic


                        There's a chance you might not like me ,

                        but there's a bigger

                        chance I won't care

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Truck Tires for small feet!

                          What I intended to say I have expressed in a misleading way it seems.
                          I'll make a sketch and post it later.

                          Would be glad, if I could watch in real and learn.

                          Looks great WD. Hope there are serials to admire in the future.
                          Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                          True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                          Black Elk

                          “Tell me, and I will listen.
                          Show me, and I will understand.
                          Involve me, and I will learn.”
                          Lakota Proverb

                          God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                          Courage to change the things I can,
                          And wisdom to know the difference.
                          Living one day at a time,
                          Enjoying one moment at a time,
                          Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                          (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have an electric torch ignitor and an acetylene torch, a camp stove and matches, or a really nice Weller soldering iron I'm not getting anywhere near melting nylon. I can put in 20 or 30 knots before I can come up with a suitable ignition source, LOL.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by OLChemist View Post
                              I have an electric torch ignitor and an acetylene torch, a camp stove and matches, or a really nice Weller soldering iron I'm not getting anywhere near melting nylon. I can put in 20 or 30 knots before I can come up with a suitable ignition source, LOL.
                              No "Bic" lighter ???
                              I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


                              They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

                              There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

                              Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
                              It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


                              sigpic


                              There's a chance you might not like me ,

                              but there's a bigger

                              chance I won't care

                              Comment

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