Dyeing questions

[momme]

I looked through the archives and didn't see anything on this so thought i'd ask. We are coming in to canning season and last year (by accident) i learned that Elderberry is a very pretty color on plain muslin, but washes out fairly easily. Was wondering if anyone had and info on how to set a natural dye so it doesn't wash out?
We are working on chokecherries right now and my daughter has discovered she really likes the color (again by accident, oh well) but wasn't sure how to keep it.
Thanks for any information you might have

Sarah

[powwowbum49]

All I know is that things like koolaid can be set in more perment by adding some vinegar. If I am not mistaken RIT dye has vinegar in it for this purpose as well.

[WocusWoman]

I have also been advised to use a cup of vinegar to set dark fabrics that bleed. I have used salt to set color into deer leather.

[OLChemist]

You need a mordrant, usually a metal salt, to cause a chemical reaction that forms a chemical/physical bond between the dye and the fiber. Without this bond, the dye molecules are just adsorbed on the surface of the fiber and/or physically entrapped between keratin or cellulose polymer fiberils.

Alum and iron sulfate are very common mordants. In the past these were gathered from lake beds and surface deposits in the earth. Now just about any dye stuff place will have them. Inorganic and organic dyes are also used.

Vinegar will act as a mordant for dyes that attach to the fibers by the attraction of acidic hydrogens on the dye molecule to electrons on the fiber (hydrogen bonding). Being an acid in can contribute a hydorgen ion to the dye molecule. By altering the pH more dye molecules can encouraged to hydrogen bond to the fiber.

(Our ancestors also used fementation processes to mordant dyes.)

Usually, the fibers or fabric is treated with a solution before dying. Some mordants are used hot. With some the fibers are dried before dying. (Please, use caution with mordants, most are poisonous and some are caustic. Read the MSDS and instructions before use. Wear gloves and safety glasses and use in a well ventilated area.)

Modrants can shift the color of the dye. Iron is notorious for changing colors -- the iron in hard water can be enough. Metal complexes can have different colors. As may the acidic and basic forms of dyes. Oxidation processes during drying can also change the color. This is somewhat of a black art and will require experimentation to get the desire color and colorfastness

Elderberries and chokecherries make very pretty colors. The primary pigment in both cases, if I'm not mistaken, is cyanidin-3-glucoside. (Just a side note, this molecule which can also be extracted from blackberries, is being investigated for use by the semiconductor/photonics industries because it forms some complex with very interesting properties.) Hibiscus, sold in Hispanic markets as jamica, makes a goregous red/purple.

Back in the lab, I have a goregous spectra elderberry extracts showing the color change from acid to base. An acidic solution of the dye is reddish/purple; a basic solution is blue-green. The change is quite striking.

Ok, this post is a result of excessive research for a talk a year ago.... Forgive, nerds are weak, LOL.

[SingingDeer]

OLChemist.... I figured you'd have all the details (I'd have to look them up )

[wyo_rose]

COOL! On a side note, OLChemist: Is there a way to remove hard water stains from light clothing which I assume to be iron stains?

[OLChemist]

If it really is the iron staining the fibers: pray, dye it orange, or burn it, LOL.

However, the Ohio State UniversityExtension office has some tips:

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5539.html

If you have really hard water, your detergent may not be able to function adequately and the oily dirt is just not coming off. My grandparents in NE had hideous well water. Grandma used Biz to help get stuff clean.

Ok, I'm having a geezer moment -- I'm discussing laundry on the web. OMG I've turned into my mom.

[SingingDeer]

...
Ok, I'm having a geezer moment -- I'm discussing laundry on the web. OMG I've turned into my mom.

OMG sounds like me when I discovered that I was starting to sound like my mom....

[Dakota Wica'hpi Ina]

I read in a thread that Ol posted to, there was a link to this prairie fiber place in Ames, IA. for natural dyes. I have one question- what products make what colors? This was not explained on the site. I'd like to know as I will be dying Bison wool yarn this fall.

[OLChemist]

They used to have a guide somewhere on the site. And I have a booklet of theirs that has that info. But there is so much black art to getting the colors -- even the type of fiber can change the color -- that you kind of have to try it.

But, that said, I would give them a call. They are very very nice and helpful. They may know exactly what you need.

[wyo_rose]

If it really is the iron staining the fibers: pray, dye it orange, or burn it, LOL.

However, the Ohio State UniversityExtension office has some tips:

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5539.html

If you have really hard water, your detergent may not be able to function adequately and the oily dirt is just not coming off. My grandparents in NE had hideous well water. Grandma used Biz to help get stuff clean.

Ok, I'm having a geezer moment -- I'm discussing laundry on the web. OMG I've turned into my mom.

Sorry to bring out the geezer in you. But that link is GREAT INFO. Our well water is Hideous, too. I think I'll go buy some BIZ.

'Anyways, that's very interesting about the natural dyes. I sure like the way chokecherries stain my teeth!

[momme]

Thank you all for the input and information.
I had wondered about vinegar, since we use it for Easter eggs, but wasn't sure.
I think I just have to get off my butt, go pick some more chokecherries and elderberries and start playing around with different things. Also do some more looking around on the web for some of the mordant type materials.
I don't know why but i think it would be really cool to have a hand dyed shirt to wear.
Ol Chemist do you have a pic of the color change for elderberry, i think that is really cool and would love to see it.
Thanks
Sarah

[momme]

I did some looking around on the web yesterday and found a couple of cool sites. The best part was lists of plants and what colors they should dye. So lots more to play with. Here's a couple that had the best info.

http://www.pioneerthinking.com/naturaldyes.html

My favorite so far.

http://nyny.essortment.com/naturaldyeplan_rxll.htm

similar to the first

http://naturaldyes.org/

lots of information still sorting through.

Hopefully I'll get to play with some of this this weekend. I'll post pics if it doesn't look too bad.

Thanks
Sarah

[Blackbear]

LOL my head is spinning from reading that. Understood every bit of it though.... and now for my suggestion. We used soda ash that you can get at just about any craft store to soak our shirts in before we tye dyed them. I believe soda ash is a mordant.. am I right? You should wear gloves with it but it's not too harsh.

BTW.. I'm being overrun with some of the reddest raspberries on the planet and everything they touch turns this gorgeous color.. I'm thinking of trying to dye some muslin with it to make some pink bunnies for easter. should I just like mash em, and add salt and then boil the fabric in it? I am not used to working with natural dyes.