Roach questions, tips, and techniques

[Tx_grass_dancer]

Here we go I got a few questions about roaches mostly on history so. But I'd like everyone to post any tips or techniques that you use or has been forgotten. Me and my dad have made roaches before so the beginer stuff I don't realy need, it's tricks that the pros use that could be useful.

Here goes my questions.

If I use a deer hair base do you sew to it just like a yarn or rope base?

What color deer hair was used way back when? In most of the Ledger pictures and old art work the roaches are red, but what other colors did they use?

I already started the thread on the skunk hair, is there any other hair or something that may be overlooked or seem strange?

Ok, thats my questions for now but please post any tips or things that me or other people might not know about roaches. And if anyone else has questions just post 'um here on this thread and we'll kill them all off.

[spottedeagle]

Turkey beards can also be used.

[lightningflash]

I've seen pictures of people from northern Montana a long time ago that some of them wore roaches with moose beard hair.

[wyat]

for what ot's worth

TX
All the old time roaches I have seen in museums and other collections the deer hair was red. I have even heard the word 'roach' translates (not sure which tribal language) to red headdress or something like. This being said it's my opinion if trying to recreate an olde time deer hair base roach red is a safe bet. In everything doing your own through research is the best way and I assume your post is the begining of such. Good luck

[Tx_grass_dancer]

Well my little brother is about 7 and starting to get serious with his dancing so we will be handing down all the roaches that my other bothers have and one of them will be getting my current one when I make this one. I'm looking to go bigger than my 15" and was just looking around for ideas. I've been doing some research and looking at old photos and musuem pieces. I thought an old style one would be nice. Personaly I don't like a lot of flashy colors and designs. Don't get me wrong they look awsome but I like the single color roches better. I read on one of the threads that the hair was died with what ever was avaliable. So thats why the colors were limited and now we got all these colors so anything goes.

How many old ones were done in white or yellow?

Where can I get a deer hair base? Will I need to make it myself? I asked the guys at matoska but they replied with what bases were avaliable. And didn't tell me where they got them or if they made them themselves.

Thanks everyone for posting.

[spottedeagle]

Try Pming Powwowbum49. Bum damn nice makes roaches. I'm sure he might be able to help you out. He also seems to know a least little about everything.

[scottlollar]

I don't know how to make the deer tail bases. It seems to me you need to make a 'rope' or a braid of the deertail hair and sew that together like a modern one is done.
But, you can use white deertail hair without any problem. That's what I stuck with, simply because I didnt' want a colorful roach. I mean, a White tail deer is called that for a reason. And no dye needed. :)
Most of the old roaches I've seen in museums and such were made with yarn bases. Or the roach was so heavily beaded or quilled you couldn't see what the base was made of. The yarn bases I saw were almost exclusively red, though. either that or a motley grey blend of colors, kind of like those old 'rag' carpets. (I don't know if I am describing that very well.)
But I have definitely heard of turkey beard, and moose. I even read something recently, where a drawing was done(an old drawing from the 1800s) where the roach had feathers put around the crown of the roach too. The feathers were supported by sticks to make sure they continued to stand up straight. Not that I have seen anything like that at a powwow - ever. Bt it's a neat idea.
Scott

[Str8Dancer49]

deer hair bases

Deer hair bases rule! Basically, all the ones I've seen are basically tied like the outer row of deer hair.... the hair folded over the cord and tied, etc. BUT the trick - and the time consuming part - is that you use a REALLY long cord, and after you get all of the deer hair tied on it, that cord , sewed to itself, makes a kinda concentric spiral outward from the hole.... turing into a teardrop shape.... does that make any sense? Once the base is done, the turkey beard or porky row is atteched, then the final outer row of deer hair, just like a regular roach.

Anyway, 99% of the deer hair base roaches i've seen have the hair base clipped short, so that the hair is only like 1/4 inch tall, except for the outer row of hair (next to the turky beard/porky hair) so it looks just like an inner row of deer hair. However, the BADDEST turkey beard roach I ever saw had an unclipped deer hair base - had this kinda plume of red hair standing up.... didn't even need a speader to hold the feather upright when it was attached to the scalplock, and the hair let it sway and move really nice...

Also, I think ALL of the turkey beard roaches i've seen had red deer hair. I've also seen sll kinds of colors and patterns worked into clipped hair bases on porky roahes.
I guess once you see one, this post won't seem so confusing, but that's about the best i could explain it. If you have seen one and didn't know it, this might help!

[Tx_grass_dancer]

Do I make it just like you would make a rope base except with tied deer hair?

It's kinda a toss up right now as to which base I will be using. I may just order a 20" rope base. But I'm gonna put in a row of skunk hair on the inside. 2 or 3 crowns & one row of porky all the way around. And haven't decided what color hair deer hair. Was thinking red, white or yellow.

[Str8Dancer49]

Hey, I found a couple of web pages that have pics of deer hair roach bases.....

Scroll down on this page and there are some pics of tops and undersides of roaches. One has an unclipped base, but the underside pics really help explain what i was trying to get across pretty well I think....

http://www.matoska.com/roach_history.htm

On this next page, you can see the top side of a clipped hair base w/ multiple color design like I was trying to describe earlier....

http://www.sherwoodsspirit.com/a6227.html

Hope that kinda helps to clarify.... and if you do the deer hair base - good luck and lots of patience!

[spottedeagle]

Thanks for those links Str8Dancer49. That second link was awesome. By the way did anyone see that $3,200 price tag and the fact that it was sold?????? OUCH!!!!!!

[Str8Dancer49]

$$$$!!!

Dang, I didn't see the price on that before! Sheesh, too bad I missed out on that $250 million powerball - didn't even get one number.... must be nice to be able to drop over 3 grand on a roach! Whoever bought it was prolly some collector and the poor roach will never get worn!

Years ago, I had a chance to buy a bad-a$$ turkey beard roach w/ unclipped hair base for $250 (lately I've seen 'em for around $800!) but didn't get it cause I was like 16 and really broke.... :wall:

[MarthaFlysWithEagles]

OK what exactly are roaches...i might know what they are but jus not know the name.....

[spottedeagle]

Click on the first link, str8 posted Martha. A pic is worth a 1000 words you know;)

[spottedeagle]

$250 for a turkey beard roach :wall: :wall: :wall:


I paid $300 for my deer and porky roach, and I got a good deal!!!!