Smudgesticks

[Mammaflora]

Drito is one born and raised in circus (not to be confiused with gypsies...)
You folks are gagio... (not from circus)

[FireAndFlint]

there is so much communication break down going on in this thread on both sides, its ridiculous.
I'm shocked to see people talk about intolerance of natives in the US, then turn around and bash someone from Europe in another thread.

On the topic of sage, it seems to me that sage works the way it does because that is the way the creator made it. It has no bearing on the user, though it amplifies with certain ceremonies, etc. Its akin to saying that a fire won't keep you warm unless you're NDN.
The creator definatly did put plants for the same purpose in europe however. So you would do well to look into that also, but first I would like to explain something, from the perspective of a Welsh/Irish person.

I know this will be shocking to some, but there is no European society.
Just like there is no NDN society.
There all different ways and tribes and countries. And I think someone mentioned that the poster should seek out people teaching the old ways, but how exactly do you do that in a continent the size of the US that has a long history of entirely wiping out all tribal groups hundreds of years ago?
We had tribes, then Rome systematically wiped each and every one out, or changed it entirely. Our bloodlines are also so skewed, how do you honour all of them? I come from a Welsh (fathers side) and Irish (mother side) family, but even we have German, Swedish, English, and reportedly Aboriginal Australian (we have several decidedly aboriginal traits, along with having lived in Australia since 1864 so it is entirely likely.)

If you want to find the old ways of doing things, where do you start in a European country? Do you go to the PaleoLithic? The Neolithic? Pre Roman Germanic, Celtic, Frankish, Slavic, Saxon, Norman, Russian perhaps? Or do you follow Roman religion, beliefs, and culture?? And if you want that route, do you want Pagan or Christian beliefs? And if you think new age stuff is bad HERE try in Europe where "druids" have entirely hijacked our pagan beliefs and taken them in the most horrid way possible.

Atleast in my ancestry, we used to have sacred sites, ceremonies, and animals who we revered, but the animals are all gone (except for some deer), we had no written language so all our stories or beliefs are gone. The Romans worked VERY hard to make sure we became Roman, and if we didn't then too bad.

Today, the Welsh still hate outsiders. If you are welsh but don't speak Gaelic, its even worse.
In Ireland, my homeland is split in two by religion and has been for hundreds of years.

My point being, asking the poster to "seek out people who know the old ways", whish people are you refuring to? Which way? And quite honestly, we have no ways. We are so throughly christianized and removed from our ancestral paths that we don't know which way is up.

[SuzzeQ4]

Its akin to saying that a fire won't keep you warm unless you're NDN.

Whoa, there buddy, you telling me that you are all trying to use fire too!

As for the rest of the post, well I guess you understand why we are so protective eh? Sure there are some people though if ya look hard enough.

[FireAndFlint]

Whoa, there buddy, you telling me that you are all trying to use fire too!

As for the rest of the post, well I guess you understand why we are so protective eh? Sure there are some people though if ya look hard enough.

where and which culture? Just because she is in Spain, doesn't mean shes Spanish. And I assure you, tribal elders that still follow the traditional ways from before Roman's took over what is now Spain, followed by the Moors after that (Spain was Islamic for a significant amount of time before the Christians retook it). On top of that, Spain has a history of being fiercly Christian (Spanish Inquisition, if you're not familiar with that, think of how the Spanish treated the Aztecs, then replace the Aztecs with Spanish Citizens as well as other European minorities and non-Christians.

Natives are lucky in the regard that their cultures are largely intact compared to traditional tribal cultures or European countries. You have had to deal with an outside influence that we had to deal with your thousands of years and ultimately completely succumbed to. Also realize that traditional cultures in Europe are intensely looked down up and are heavily subjugated. We have plants, animals, art, and skills that we used to use, but the culture that supported them are non-existent. We have no elders, we have no teachers, and our sacred sites are silent, because nobody knows any of their true meanings. Out songs and stories are gone. All we have is random references to what was once important.

[RDNKJ]

Drito is one born and raised in circus (not to be confiused with gypsies...)
You folks are gagio... (not from circus)

Thanks, Mammaflora. How interesting! I've never met any "circus folk" before (as opposed to "carnies.") What kind of circus? The small, travelling kind? Is that what you're doing still?

[steelemagnolia63]

look I see another one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RDNKJ]

Dude! You can find anything on the internet!!!

Urban Dictionary: drito

Yeah, I saw that too, guy! I'll never see Brian Boitano in the same way again!

[OLChemist]

I'm shocked to see people talk about intolerance of natives in the US, then turn around and bash someone from Europe in another thread.

Please, remember there are lots of people on these forums. The powwows.com does NOT speak with one voice.

FireAndFlint, please try to understand the root of some of the anger here. In my experience tolerance -- as defined by non-Native people with a request -- means "give me the answer/information I want." When my personal sensibilities or concerns about cultural integrity prohibit answering, I get called intolerant. Usually as a kicker, the requester then declares me inauthentically Native, by saying my ancestors -- the "real Indians" -- would have given them what they want. Tolerance means realizing their need trumps my people's need. It's the tolerance of vultures.

Surely with the history you have just described you can understand the soul wound our communities and families are healing. Please give us a little tolerance.

[FireAndFlint]

Please, remember there are lots of people on these forums. The powwows.com does NOT speak with one voice.

FireAndFlint, please try to understand the root of some of the anger here. In my experience tolerance -- as defined by non-Native people with a request -- means "give me the answer/information I want." When my personal sensibilities or concerns about cultural integrity prohibit answering, I get called intolerant. Usually as a kicker, the requester then declares me inauthentically Native, by saying my ancestors -- the "real Indians" -- would have given them what they want. Tolerance means realizing their need trumps my people's need. It's the tolerance of vultures.

Surely with the history you have just described you can understand the soul wound our communities and families are healing. Please give us a little tolerance.

Perhaps I was misunderstood, I've made some wordy posts so I can easily see why, when I mentioned tolerance I wasn't talking about her request for information, I was pointing out some of the following posts directed at the poster after she had accepted their answers.

I fully realise the whole thing of being called intolerant because you chose not to share something, I'm on your side of this matter! I have been fortunate enough to have teachers who have taught me what is appropriate to ask about, and the way to seek things from elders, and that sometimes, you just aren't suppose to know certain things. Not everything is entitled to everyone.

[lbgood]

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[lbgood]

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[FireAndFlint]

I agree!

Most non-Indians feel they are entitled to everything. With regard to spiritual/cultural aspects, if you are supposed to know it will eventually come to you and you won't have to go out of your way to know! Alot of Elders will not pass on that knowledge until they feel you are ready and can handle that responsibility.

If one is non-indian then embrace that. Don't try to be something your not!

I've heard some stories that make me believe firmly that when certain things are supposed to happen, they will. Nothing is coincidence or random, all things happen within a pattern.

[Wangi Chetan]

Great post!!!
FireAndFlint Google Historical Trauma and unresolved grief and maybe you will understand our reluctance to share.

[FireAndFlint]

Great post!!!
FireAndFlint Google Historical Trauma and unresolved grief and maybe you will understand our reluctance to share.

i am familiar with both concepts and I know how it travels through the generations. It is something that needs to be resolved and worked through however, in the same way that a person who is the victim of trauma in their life should seek out help and work through it. In individuals with a history of trauma it is always self destructive to allow those things to go untreated.
But that is a whole other topic.

[Wangi Chetan]

i am familiar with both concepts and I know how it travels through the generations. It is something that needs to be resolved and worked through however, in the same way that a person who is the victim of trauma in their life should seek out help and work through it. In individuals with a history of trauma it is always self destructive to allow those things to go untreated.
But that is a whole other topic.

This is and isn't a whole other subject. Yes, we must heal from these traumas but we must never forget what has been done in the attempt to prevent the passing of these sacred ways and knowledge. To forget would dishonor all those who struggled saving these sacred things. Sharing has it's time and place and "No" can and should be said respectfully.