Hawk Vs Eagle Feathers

[TinyOne]

My family is Navajo and I was wondering if the use of Hawk feathers in place of Eagle was acceptable usage or would it be frowned upon by other natives. It seems that it is getting harder and harder to obtain Eagle feathers. I don't believe in using imitation feathers for any type of regalia but would Hawk feather bustles and fans be ok?

Thank you for your input on the subject.

[Zeke]

I think a red tailed hawk fan or "visor" for traditional dancers -- made from tail feathers -- is a beautiful thing.

I am aware of no Natives who would believe otherwise.

[wardancer]

I wore a Red Tail Visor and Epaulets for years and no one EVER said a word to me about it !

[blacktail]

even if the imitation feathers were dyed (not painted) to look exactly like eagle feathers?

[TinyOne]

Hawk Vs Eagle

I see many dancers now using imitation feathers and I believe that it is a down right disgrace to our people to have to do that. I would rather use hawk in place of eagle until the gov repository or some family can help get enough that I need. Hawk tail feathers make wonderful fans but I am going to be making bustles for my young sons out of Hawk wing for now. No way would would I as a native start using imitation feathers for regalia. I would be fine use to sell to non natives but as regalia it is distasteful.

[wardancer]

even if the imitation feathers were dyed (not painted) to look exactly like eagle feathers?

I personally,would never wear imitations , however that would be a personal choice and if someone chose to do so, it would be none of my business !

[blacktail]

i've heard one of our elders say one day we won't be able to get eagle feathers anymore (for one reason or another) and will have to use seagull. hope that day never comes.

[wardancer]

i've heard one of our elders say one day we won't be able to get eagle feathers anymore (for one reason or another) and will have to use seagull. hope that day never comes.

So even if Eagles are unavailable , who says seagull are a good replacement ? What makes them "special" ? Or "Nobel"? Or even "Respected" ?
Just asking !

[yaahl]

So even if Eagles are unavailable , who says seagull are a good replacement ? What makes them "special" ? Or "Nobel"? Or even "Respected" ?
Just asking !

Sea faring cultures often believe that a seagull carries the soul of a deceased sailor to the other side. So for those cultures, they are pretty significant birds.

My own people have several stories about the gull and the raven such as:

Raven had caught a number of small fish—olachen—which he was cooking over a fire. When he called the gull, many gulls came and ate all of the fish. Angered, Raven punished the gulls by throwing them into the fire, and that is why many gulls in on the west coast have black wing tips.

In another story we have the battle of the land birds and the sea birds:

Both birds wanted to harvest poggies (small fish), cod and flounders on the beach, but the raven beat the gull to the bounty day after day and then lied about it. Determined to have the beach to himself, the gull killed the raven, whereupon the crow, raven’s sister, gathered an army of land birds and began killing the gull’s army of sea birds. The crow demanded low tide early in the morning so that she could forage for things swept up onto the beach. The land birds were winning and the gull was forced to concede.

The Inuit speak of the Monster Gull:

One day a Nugumiut was out caribou-hunting. While be was wandering about looking for caribou, be saw a monster sea-gull walking towards him. The gull picked him up, placed him on its back, and flew away towards the sea. Then the man became very much afraid, and thought of trying to kill the gull with his knife. He kept on stabbing it with his knife until he succeeded in piercing the skin and opening a *‘in. Then the gull’s blood began to flow. The bird died and fell into the sea. The man tried very hard to pull out one the feathers from its wing. After he had taken one out, he pulled out a second one, and made a paddle by tying the quills together. Then he paddled the gull to the shore. After working for a long time, he saw that he was nearing shore. Finally he succeeded in reaching land. From that time on he was no longer afraid of anything. He hurried home to tell the people how the monster sea-gull had taken him out to sea, and how he had killed it.

[wardancer]

O.K. That's all well and good. But they all have their own meanings...Does that mean all Tradish dancers change out their eagle feathers for seagull ? I don't think so.

[blacktail]

interesting yaahl, thanks for sharing! something else to consider (eventhough it's pretty much beating a dead horse). there are a few communities of wampanoags here in the eastern part of massachusetts. only two are federally recognised. so, "legally" speaking those that aren't are in violation of federal law if they use these sacred tools to pray with, go to powwow, ect. technically the same is true with hawk feathers. so if there's an acceptable alternative, why not use it? another thing to consider is that today some things used to make regalia was (is) looked upon as dispespectful. i.e. film containers used for roach spinners, fishing swivels attached to the ends of feathers to help them spin, plastic beads (i've seen highly respected elders wearing them) i could go on. where do we draw the line, or should there be one drawn?

[wardancer]

interesting yaahl, thanks for sharing! something else to consider (eventhough it's pretty much beating a dead horse). there are a few communities of wampanoags here in the eastern part of massachusetts. only two are federally recognised. so, "legally" speaking those that aren't are in violation of federal law if they use these sacred tools to pray with, go to powwow, ect. technically the same is true with hawk feathers. so if there's an acceptable alternative, why not use it? another thing to consider is that today some things used to make regalia was (is) looked upon as dispespectful. i.e. film containers used for roach spinners, fishing swivels attached to the ends of feathers to help them spin, plastic beads (i've seen highly respected elders wearing them) i could go on. where do we draw the line, or should there be one drawn?

Well , there are some folks who think the world is flat !
Do you have any beadwork???? Well before beads were introduced as trading material we used shells , berries , dyed quills.
So you should just get rid of all the beadwork and go around and tell everyone else to lose theirs too !
Give me a break , everything evolves !

[blacktail]

you're misunderstanding what i'm saying. i don't have a problem with what people decide to use for their regalia. it's their regalia. same goes if someone chooses to use artificial feathers for fear of being arested.

[yaahl]

O.K. That's all well and good. But they all have their own meanings...Does that mean all Tradish dancers change out their eagle feathers for seagull ? I don't think so.

I suppose it all depends on what the tradish's dancer's people have in their history about different birds.

I wear Raven feathers on mine and I carry a Raven wing for a fan. I'm Raven clan. Eagles are a different clan so I wouldn't wear an Eagle feather without their permission.

But with the repository controlling all the feathers, I can see folks getting impatient waiting for their feathers and switching to the smaller brothers of the eagle to wear.

[mikki_mono]

I've seen hawk bustled and they are quite nice but then again I've seen all types except for black vulture. They are close looking to eagle feathers some say, do you think that would be exceptible to use for a tradish bustle?