Hawk Vs Eagle Feathers

[Two Horses]

My family is Navajo and I was wondering if the use of Hawk feathers in place of Eagle was acceptable usage or would it be frowned upon by other natives. It seems that it is getting harder and harder to obtain Eagle feathers. I don't believe in using imitation feathers for any type of regalia but would Hawk feather bustles and fans be ok?

Thank you for your input on the subject.

Hello... Wow, quite a thread on this subject that went in a whole bunch of directions and I appreciate everyone's position in all those discussions.
I am a Northern Traditional and Gourd Dancer. I am Ani'yunwi'ya and Chahta. I am also a combat veteran of the Black Horse Regiment (11th ACR) Vietnam. I was gifted a beautiful Redtail Hawk bustle and dance stick by my nephews many years ago who are also Sun Dancers, honorable young men. The only "discretion" I have ever experienced dancing with such (I do wear two Eagle feathers in my roach and carry a Eagle wing fan) was in how we enter the Circle at a pow wow; Eagles first, Hawks second... and this is only because Eagles fly higher than Hawks - a natural order. But as far as respect - that's a matter of how you show up and conduct yourself, not just on the day you're at the pow wow, but how you do your life outside the circle. I am Northern Tradish and conduct myself in this manner wherever I am and whomever I come into contact with. So wear your Hawk feathers with pride and comport yourself in the manner of the style you dance. Make your people and all those who came before you, say of you, this is a good human being doing things in the right way. And the Creator will see that this is so.
It is good to ask these questions and never feel that you ask a stupid question -- this is how we learn and grow as well as reconnect with our ancestors. There was a time when this asking and learning was forbidden so anyone who shows you their ego and their displeasure have either never learned the lessons they were taught or they forgot. This is all I have to say.

[TinyOne]

Hawk Vs Eagle

My name is Michael and I am a combat veteran (Vietnam - 69). My two nephews, both Sun Dancers, made me a beautiful Redtail Hawk bustle for me years ago. I have worn proudly with not one sideways look from other dancers or comments. (you probably wouldn't hear them even if they were spoken - but that's not the point).

I was also gifted an Eagle Wing fan and two matched eagle feathers for my Roach. The bustle is Redtail because it was Redtail that came to me in my dream. When entering the Circle, Eagle feathers go first, then Hawk -- it's a matter of which flies higher - this is what I was told and done out of respect, not ego.

Eagle or Hawk it is how you carry yourself with respect and humility - I've seen a few dropped feathers that speak more about attention to detail so for me, it is not what you wear, but how you wear it and carry the spirit with honor and grace.

I hope this helps you and would love to see you post a photo of your finished work!

Thank you for your input and for your service my friend.

[Two Horses]

Hawk vs Eagle Feather Bustle

My name is Michael and I am a combat veteran (Vietnam - 69). My two nephews, both Sun Dancers, made me a beautiful Redtail Hawk bustle for me years ago. I have worn proudly with not one sideways look from other dancers or comments. (you probably wouldn't hear them even if they were spoken - but that's not the point).

I was also gifted an Eagle Wing fan and two matched eagle feathers for my Roach. The bustle is Redtail because it was Redtail that came to me in my dream. When entering the Circle, Eagle feathers go first, then Hawk -- it's a matter of which flies higher - this is what I was told and done out of respect, not ego.

Eagle or Hawk it is how you carry yourself with respect and humility - I've seen a few dropped feathers that speak more about attention to detail so for me, it is not what you wear, but how you wear it and carry the spirit with honor and grace.

I hope this helps you and would love to see you post a photo of your finished work!

[TinyOne]

wow glad to hear that someone gets feathers from the non eagle repository. after several attempts to contact and to resend papers to the ok office i did finally get someone to call back but it only took 2 yrs, but they said they never got any paperwork from me. :-( which office did you go thru and how long did it take you?

They came from Arizona office. I find it is best to actually go there in person with your papers rather than call and wait. There is also an office in Oklahoma and why it took you 2 years is odd when it took us only a few months. The one thing I can tell you is that the N.E.R you can call but the non eagle repository you really need to visit their office to get anything done in a timely manner. I finished a a wonderful 7 tail feather fan and plan to make another 5 tail feather straight fan out of the rest. The tail feathers represent our mother, grandmother and great grandmother on one side and our father, grand and great grand father on the other side. The center feather represents the coming together of family's to produce the child which is now my wife. The same would be for a 5 feather fan. At least that's what we were taught. Other tribes it may represent something else. I also put 4 small feathers in front of the main tail feathers to represent our 4 children. We have 3 sons now. Our first child has moved on to the next world but still put one in front for her. I love that our culture has so much meaning and it changes between tribes, clans and families. No one see's that anymore. When dressed in our regalia not many but our own family knows why we use which feathers and why we bead particular designs. I hope that all our people give that gift of knowledge to the next generation.

[TinyOne]

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[mikki_mono]

No they are not as available anymore. I wish each tribe or the government would be more aggressive with providing feathers. I come to realize that most of the feathers the N.E.R gets is from seizures from either non natives or natives without papers to show where they came from. Maybe i am wrong but the none eagle repository has been much kinder and faster in providing other types of feathers such as hawk and other birds of prey. One center in Arizona and the other in Oklahoma I think. Its still a new program but I have been pleased so far while i wait for enough from the Eagle repository.

wow glad to hear that someone gets feathers from the non eagle repository. after several attempts to contact and to resend papers to the ok office i did finally get someone to call back but it only took 2 yrs, but they said they never got any paperwork from me. :-( which office did you go thru and how long did it take you?

[TinyOne]

Hawk Vs Eagle

No they are not as available anymore. I wish each tribe or the government would be more aggressive with providing feathers. I come to realize that most of the feathers the N.E.R gets is from seizures from either non natives or natives without papers to show where they came from. Maybe i am wrong but the none eagle repository has been much kinder and faster in providing other types of feathers such as hawk and other birds of prey. One center in Arizona and the other in Oklahoma I think. Its still a new program but I have been pleased so far while i wait for enough from the Eagle repository.

[TinyOne]

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[Berry Picker]

Some years ago, I was gifted 2 hawk feathers. One a red tailed hawk and the other from a cooper's hawk. Both are wing feathers. The people who gave them to me are enrolled members of the Eastern Band of Cherokee and explained to me that they didnt have eagle feathers to give me but felt I deserved them for the work I did for their family. They wanted to gift me with eagle feathers but had none. What was I going to say? No dont give me those lesser brother feathers? Please....

There have been times at powwows around here where the MC will mention how some of us, like me, arent wearing eagle feathers because, as y'all point out, they just arent available like in times past, thanks to all the colonial chiken hawk killers and loss of habitat and, well you get the idea. I really appreciated those MCs who called it for what it is- making do in times when the feathers arent available. Respect goes a long ways.

[mikki_mono]

I've seen hawk bustled and they are quite nice but then again I've seen all types except for black vulture. They are close looking to eagle feathers some say, do you think that would be exceptible to use for a tradish bustle?

[yaahl]

O.K. That's all well and good. But they all have their own meanings...Does that mean all Tradish dancers change out their eagle feathers for seagull ? I don't think so.

I suppose it all depends on what the tradish's dancer's people have in their history about different birds.

I wear Raven feathers on mine and I carry a Raven wing for a fan. I'm Raven clan. Eagles are a different clan so I wouldn't wear an Eagle feather without their permission.

But with the repository controlling all the feathers, I can see folks getting impatient waiting for their feathers and switching to the smaller brothers of the eagle to wear.

[blacktail]

you're misunderstanding what i'm saying. i don't have a problem with what people decide to use for their regalia. it's their regalia. same goes if someone chooses to use artificial feathers for fear of being arested.

[wardancer]

interesting yaahl, thanks for sharing! something else to consider (eventhough it's pretty much beating a dead horse). there are a few communities of wampanoags here in the eastern part of massachusetts. only two are federally recognised. so, "legally" speaking those that aren't are in violation of federal law if they use these sacred tools to pray with, go to powwow, ect. technically the same is true with hawk feathers. so if there's an acceptable alternative, why not use it? another thing to consider is that today some things used to make regalia was (is) looked upon as dispespectful. i.e. film containers used for roach spinners, fishing swivels attached to the ends of feathers to help them spin, plastic beads (i've seen highly respected elders wearing them) i could go on. where do we draw the line, or should there be one drawn?

Well , there are some folks who think the world is flat !
Do you have any beadwork???? Well before beads were introduced as trading material we used shells , berries , dyed quills.
So you should just get rid of all the beadwork and go around and tell everyone else to lose theirs too !
Give me a break , everything evolves !

[blacktail]

interesting yaahl, thanks for sharing! something else to consider (eventhough it's pretty much beating a dead horse). there are a few communities of wampanoags here in the eastern part of massachusetts. only two are federally recognised. so, "legally" speaking those that aren't are in violation of federal law if they use these sacred tools to pray with, go to powwow, ect. technically the same is true with hawk feathers. so if there's an acceptable alternative, why not use it? another thing to consider is that today some things used to make regalia was (is) looked upon as dispespectful. i.e. film containers used for roach spinners, fishing swivels attached to the ends of feathers to help them spin, plastic beads (i've seen highly respected elders wearing them) i could go on. where do we draw the line, or should there be one drawn?

[wardancer]

O.K. That's all well and good. But they all have their own meanings...Does that mean all Tradish dancers change out their eagle feathers for seagull ? I don't think so.