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Dances that exlude Non-Indians. Good or Bad?

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  • #16
    Applauds Riverwind!!!!! :)

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    • #17
      I only paid $29.95 out of tbe back of a magizine to be a bishop. Does that count? :D

      seriously,all kidding aside if its ceremony then it belongs with that particular tribe/nation.

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      • #18
        Two-cents1 - I think you seriously need to take to heart what all these posts are saying to you. I think you're comparing apples to oranges. How can you respectfully enter someone's house without ever being invited?

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        • #19
          The first sure sign of a wannabe, twinkie, pretendian is the abundant use of the word RESPECT.

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          • #20
            I thought about sending this as a PM to Saponi, but since he/she brought it out in the open and addressed it to me publicly, I decided to answer him/her publicly.

            What are these posts saying to me Saponi? Enlighten me please. I admit, I am heavy on the sarcasm and it probably got carried away (like I said, I'm having a BAD DAY), but I don't think it is at all like comparing apples and oranges. Ceremonies (I have to say this again, CEREMONIES - not POWWOWS, just for those who don't pay close attention to the topic at hand), to us are our religion. That's where the comparison is, comparing one religion with another religion, in this case the Catholic Church, and I will stand by that.

            As for me respectully entering someone's house where I've not been invited, for your information, and I can't believe I am saying this to justify anything I am saying to someone that I don't know and probably will never meet (and not that it's any of your business), but I am, like Sahnish stated, a recovering Catholic. After 12 YEARS of Catholic education, I think I know whereof I speak. In addition, I was not trying to knock the Catholic Church, I was TRYING to make a point. I would never attempt to participate in something in the Catholic church that I was not educated in, nor had permission to do. Being Catholic, I know that there are boundaries for us to abide by within the Church itself. You can't do your first communion until you are baptized. You can't receive your first reconciliation until you receive your first communion, and so on. For those of you Catholics out there, have you ever tried to explain to someone that is not Catholic why they can't go and receive communion if they go to church with you? How appropriate would it be for someone to wear a priest's or nun's habit just because they love the church and they think they know enough about it to do something like that? My whole point in making the original comment about the Church is that anyone with half a brain would not criticize the Catholic church for supporting and enforcing it's own doctrine, which is the topic at hand. (There is enough criticism from practicing Catholics to go around. And for those that are outside the Church and want to criticize, do you think the church is going to change or even listen to people that are not Catholic?) For example: What would you think about someone who was not Catholic, had no intention of ever converting, but felt they had the right to participate in the sacraments no matter what the priests and nun's told him?

            BTW, if anyone wants to start a discussion of why Indians belong to organized "white" religions when we don't want non-Indians at our ceremonies, please start another thread because I'm sure there will be a long string of responses to that one from both sides.

            After 12 years, I know the Church backward and forward (note I said the Church, not the Bible), and I know my own ways like many of us do....we know BOTH the church and ceremonies. One was part of us because it was forced on our respective nations years ago and it just stayed because it was familiar.....the other is part of us, who we are...it belongs to us.

            For those that can't see the sense in the comparison, (the original comparison, overlooking all the sarcasm that followed except for Sahnish's - I thought that one was a goot one!), then there is no point in wasting my time trying to explain because those that can't see it either refuse to see it, or just plain can't and never will.

            Now, since you brought it up, I must ask: Are you Catholic, Saponi? If the answer is yes, did you attend Catholic schools, or are you one of those Catholics that either attends mass once in a great while and doesn't have any formal education in Catholic history and doctrine, or did you attend CCD classes at night when you were younger? Just want to know since you made the assumption about my not respectfully entering a house where I was not ever invited.

            Two-cents

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            • #21
              The comment about entering someones house without being invited is very interesting.

              I do not know if TwoCents people do this or not but one long standing tradition of ours (Muscogee Creek/Seminole) is when you go to someones house you wait at the door and wait for permission to enter the home. The door could be wide open with peopel streaming in and out yet you wait until have permission.

              TwoCents strikes me as the type who would wait at the door, thats my opinion. ALl the sarcasm about the church and, even though is light hearted, has a root that plainly shows how we feel about this issue.

              Powwow is powwow, a celebration of nations, good times, good freinds, good laughs and good food. To many nations they have lost their traditions and powwow is all they have and maybe some small minor traditions. BUt this does not make it ceremony.

              Ceremony is who we are, where we came from. who we were and where we are going. These things BELONG to the people/nations that these things were given to PERIOD. Who participates and who does not is up to them and not to the one who wants in on the action. I dont belive the comparison is apples/oranges, they are very much the same thing only some people refuse to see it for what it is. The underlying, unspoken premise of our words were very much in effect in those sarcastic posts, it was obvious to me. Was it obvious to anyone else?
              A Warrior without character is nothing more than a brute.

              I have lots of freinds, you just cant see them:)

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              • #22
                This has been a very good line to read.

                And I am no scholar, and I now the many times I don't get my point across the way I want to but here it goes.

                I don't think the word respect is such a bad word to use because. If you respect someone, then you must respect their right to say no. And thats a very powerful thing. I have gone to many dances and not danced. My friends would look at me and ask why I wasn't. They travel all over the country and even to Europe doing shows and competing. And when we go we have a great time because we're with good freinds. But some times I don't feel that it is appropriate to get out in the circle and dance. I have never been to a dance and asked to not dance. But if that ever happens, I will simply enjoy the dance from the side. I have been honored by my freinds many times to get up and dance with them, and this gives me the greatest feeling.
                But as with any freind, sometimes we get into deep talks about many things. Most of the time it's about the ladies at the dances. But some times it's about the family and their customs or beliefs. And on sometimes we will come to things that they choose not to talk about. And that's were it ends, and we go on to something else. Sometimes my freind will come back to me later and we will talk about the subject that he chose not to talk about. But I think that respecting someone goes much deeper. In it alows a person to say no.

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                • #23
                  For many there is a difference between ceremony, powwow, family event, etc.

                  Most (not all) powwows are adversited and open to the public. Some powwows are heavily marketed also. Now this brings up decisions for the committee and the MC. Are only NDNs the ones to dance? When the MC says "Intertribal - everybody dance" is that really all inclusive?

                  If you are at one this advertised, marketed and open to the public dances then you have to know that all kinds of people will be there. And if the MC calls for everybody to dance then you have to know that all kinds of people are going to accept the invitation.

                  Now most (not all) "ceremonies" are not advertised or open to the public. So if the public finds out some how and shows up then is up to the committee or family or whoever to make it known that it is a private event.

                  I realize that this in common sense, but some seem to forget that alot of dances are open to the public and at times an open invitation is giving for all people to participate. With the growth of dances and events and the heavy marketing we must see that we will have non-native people there.

                  Whatever the case may be, it is good to do your best to educate any that may be doing something wrong or inappropriate.

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                  • #24
                    Hey Two Cents!! :D

                    I hear you girl, I understand you....you go girl..... :D
                    Sahnish

                    "There is nothing more dangerous than ignorance in action."

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                    • #25
                      :D

                      [ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: Sahnish ]
                      Sahnish

                      "There is nothing more dangerous than ignorance in action."

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                      • #26
                        Ill do you one better my brother(clipped latin speech pattern) I can refer you to the Center of Healing Prayerful Mother of our True Divine Highness Upon The Sacred Rock of Puritan Forgiving-dom Blessings Bequeethed Upon Round Yon Virginity School of Priestdom.
                        Its a $500 Seminar but you can be a REAL CERTIFIED PRIEST!!! Then you can bless your own beads!

                        Seriously though. I think its kinda of pretentious to look down upon any tribal group for THEIR right to choose who does and does not participate in their ceremonies. Ive been to ceremonies held by people of other nations. I helped where I could whether it was preparing meals or cutting wood, gathering things, assisting the elderly etc etc but I did not take it upon myself to presume that I could participate in what was being done. Its not my place for one and second its not my way. Even if asked to participate my first response would be no and thank them for the invitation. Theres an underlying, unspoken premise to being asked to particpate in ceremony that nonndn people dont get, its cultural and maybe youll learn it but after being around for a LONG time.

                        Maybe after spending a long time with the people, to where I could UNDERSTAND the whos, whys, and what fors and even the language, then MAYBE I would consider participating.

                        What is happening is people are given an inch and they want a mile..or should I say

                        We gave them an inch, they took 500,000 square miles.

                        Its the same mind set today as 500 years ago.
                        A Warrior without character is nothing more than a brute.

                        I have lots of freinds, you just cant see them:)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Well. Allow me to Broaden this subject, just alittle. I undestand "Non- Natives are getting a little upset about why they cant dance at CEREMONIES or dances. Are you aware of some CEREMONIES restricting Natives!? Out here in the Southwest part of the U.S. for Example: some Hopi dances are closed to every out sider. and sometimes too relations as well. They close down the whole REZ. The Apache Holy Ground dances are by invition only. some Apache Gahn dances are private.Even yaqui dances .WE as Natives out here understand very well the reasons why we are not invited.So just because we are card packing natives Doesnt mean we can just go to a dance any where anytime either,
                          If the Kiowa wish to close down the dances to invition or just invite others. We as Natives must understand that as well and respect their wish to dance.
                          So... its just not happening just to NON NATIVES! it happens to NATIVES as well .
                          As for Pow Wow dances i cant answer that. i have never seen someone refused . we have a very excepted NON-NATIVE that dances out here all the time! he is well respected. the young kids love him to death, they call him Uncle!.......
                          Oh as for you Catholics " Down on your knees and ask for gods blessing" and ten hail marys for .....aye ! I know that way too!....Peace be with you!

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                          • #28
                            bla bla bla bla just stick to the question.non indians are greedy the will take everything for them selves.they have done it since they came to this place.win have you ever seen a white man give evereything hes got away (never),when has a white man put on a dance using only his money never.sure i have seen white people bring one indian into there home and provide for him but in return that white man is getting knowledge from that individual and thats the only reason white people let them in.now all the INDIANS out there do you ask for things in return when people stay with you? it is a way of life that you must live every day.why should indians let whites dance when the just indian once a month? they dont live like indians every day.this is somthing you have to do to take part in these ceromonies or you miss the whole meaning behind them.now like i said before i am not going to tell anyone to live or say anything bad to you(or to your face anyway)and no it doesnt make for a better or worse dance.but in my mind if you trully want to do these dances or sing or whatever live it every day.i know its a good way to be but you have to live it every day.you cant go to oklahoma or where ever once month to understand what these dances mean the stories and history behind them.ya you can read some it in books but you dont understand tell you are danceing praying doing everything for a pupose not to get a head but to help other people. to make god smile at you and everything around you.dont go to tie on your new moccs so you can look better than someone else.go to know the meaning behind the dances learn why we do them.listen to whats going on help someone who needs it.i know i might be preaching a little bit but i want people to know these dances all dances have a pupose and for people to learn to respect it lo live that way of life that god intended if your gonna do it do it all the way not half azz ok!now im not saying white people disrespect in the arena but do have that same respect for everything you do?do you have respect for all your suroundings?or is it that one or twice your at some kind of indian doings?learn it,live it, love it! my famous last words
                            learn it,live it love it!

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                            • #29
                              two-cents, who are your folks, we set camp up at carnegie,ok to. but just to let you people know, I don't think non-indians should do this dance, because they don't follow the rules that come along with it. Not trying to be hateful or any thing like that.

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                              • #30
                                Hello, I'm back....and in a better mood today. :D

                                (Thanks Sahnish and Riverwind for your comments.)

                                First of all, Echohawk, I will PM you regarding your question.

                                Next, I think the original question was, "Does excluding non-Indians really make for a better powwow/ceremony?" I liked what Az Okie had to say because that was on my mind as well when I posted. Alot of ceremonies are very strict, and restricting participation in ceremonies to just members of the nation that the ceremony belongs to is common. We accept that without question, well at least most of us do. I think it has more to do with keeping the ceremony as close to it's purest form as possible, but that is just my opinion. It has been my experience at ceremonies where they let non-Indians participate, that they don't really understand everything that is going on, but they know enough to be there. I was at a ceremony up north and the non-Indians there were very distracting!! One guy had some kind of rattle which didn't belong at this particular ceremony, and we had to put up with the non-Indians being pushy towards the people to whom the ceremony belonged, and conducting themselves in ways that were very inappropriate to that ceremony. So from my own personal experiences, I find that it's a better ceremony that excludes non-Indians.

                                As for what Tom Iron Eagle stated, regarding advertising ceremonies or powwows, I don't know of any ceremonies that are advertised and open to the public. The ceremonies I have participated in are not advertised, and usually just community members and their relatives, friends, and visitors are there. Powwows of course are different, and if they are advertised as open to the public then of course one should expect that non-Indians are going to attend and participate in whatever capacity.

                                Two-cents :D :D :D

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                                • Zotigh
                                  Gourd at contest...how?
                                  by Zotigh
                                  I've been reminesing 'bout grandpa. He took me and my brothers and cousins to so many dances. Would he recognize dances today? The open 'social' and 'ceremonial' dances...yeah, I think he would. But, the 'contest', pin the number squares on the dancers thing, called 'contest dances'....I don't...
                                  08-03-2008, 03:55 AM
                                • TacO5000
                                  Gourd dancing is not a veterans dance
                                  by TacO5000
                                  Everytime I read This post that you people put your always talking about the gourd dancing being a veterans dance, its not a veteran dance. I have roots in carnige and have also lived in carnige. Some of my family are members of the Kiowa Gourd Clan. It's a Kiowa dance, this is coming from a kiowa ...
                                  08-03-2003, 12:35 AM
                                • Josiah
                                  Encyclopedia version of the Gourd Dance
                                  by Josiah
                                  I surf the internet alot and occasional run across bits of information that i have to share.
                                  I was reading this entry in the encyclopedia and it struck me that there were things in here that I have never heard of!
                                  I am no expert and do not claim to know everything, that is not possible....
                                  08-02-2006, 01:36 PM
                                • Josiah
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                                  by Josiah
                                  It was requested that we should have a new poll regarding this question, which I think is a better way to put it...
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                                  76.92%
                                  30
                                  No
                                  7.69%
                                  3
                                  I don't have anything to do with Gourd Dance, but I think females should be able to dance.
                                  2.56%
                                  1
                                  I don't have anything to do with Gourd Dance, but I think only males should dance.
                                  10.26%
                                  4
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                                  2.56%
                                  1
                                  11-25-2008, 01:42 AM
                                • wickedannabella
                                  Gourd Dance, Dying? Or resurgance?
                                  by wickedannabella
                                  Here in the midwest there seems to be renewed interest in the Gourd Dance. My father is a member of the Star Hawk Society and he's PLEASED to have this make a comeback. What are your feelings on this?
                                  07-01-2003, 07:00 PM

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