Dances that exlude Non-Indians. Good or Bad?

[Long Otter]

Two-cents1 - No I am not Catholic. I didn't intend to rile you, sorry. I'm just confused as to how you can compare being Catholic to "Dances that exclude Non-Indians". What has that got to do with the price of tea in China? That's not a very good comparison. Any race/nationality can be Catholic. Have you been to any Catholic websites and used being Indian and Catholic as a comparison? I'm sorry, I guess I'm just a litle confused is all.

I agree that if you attend a public pow-wow and inter-tribals are called, I'd bet most Indians would have no qualms about non-Indians participating. All I'm saying that if you're non-Indian and you're not invited then you shouldn't get your underwear in a wad over it. After all it is our culture and one of only a few things that have not been taken away from us completely just yet.

[Two-cents1]

The comparison to the Catholic Church was not originally intended to compare with excluding non-Indians from ceremonies or powwows. That comparison came up after Rainbow's posted and shook her virtual finger at me, and since more non-Indians are familiar with organized religion than our ceremonies, I wrote what I did trying to get people to see the correlation....trying to illustrate why it is wrong for people to think that they should be able to participate just because they like and admire our culture so much. Most people see the sense in the comparison (as indicated by the posts that followed, heavy with sarcasm as they were), and if you don't, like I said, I'm not going to bother explaining it any further. I think the recovering/practicing Catholics on the board can see it very clearly, so maybe you have to be Catholic to get it.

BTW, I much prefer the annual celebrations (not ceremonies, but celebrations) that are in Indian communities....they seem to have a very low, if non-existent, population of outrageous wannabees. No questionable whistles or "fanning up" drums, no "brushing up drums" or whatever they do in out of the way places. These celebrations/powwows don't exclude non-Indians from participating(remember Sahnish, when MTV's "Road Rules" was at Mandaree?), but outrageous acting non-Indians don't usually show up at Hwy 2 powwows and those are the ones I prefer.

Two-cents

[Tsi-tse Wa-tsi]

Just to add alittle juice to the Catholic fire. I know a very respected full blood Osage woman who goes to both NAC and Catholic church. She told me she like to cover her bases. :D

[Sahnish]

:D

[ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: Sahnish ]

[Sahnish]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sahnish:
[QB]Hey two cents;
I was watching them tape that MTV show at Mandaree. Acutally some of my relative's helped hook them out with outfits etc. Speaking of Highway 2, I was up there checking out Poplar Indian days over Labor Day week end. Dusty as ever and smoky from the fire at Glacier, but like you say it is hard to beat them ol' down home celebrations, where every one knows everybody, you know what to expect and you don't get suprised to often, except from the winners. lol Was Cass Lakes labor day pow wow traditional this year? I had heard that it was going to be.

[itokasniye]

So was that naming ceremony real? They seemed to like it. Wasnt one of them NDN? I remember it about 5 years ago.

[Two-cents1]

Sahnish, I didn't hear about any of the big guns going to Cass Lake this year, so I'm assuming it was traditional. Alot that usually go there ended up at Black River Falls, WI. I haven't been to Poplar Indian Days in a few years, so you're gonna make me depressed if you tell me anymore good stuff like that! Except tell me if there were alot of dancers, or just the usual that attend.

As for Road Rules at Mandaree, I was there and I remember them all dancing in Grand Entry, and whose outfits they wore. I talked to a few people up there and I don't recall all the stuff the cast did while they were up there, so I don't know about any ceremony. Sahnish might know, but I never got to catch the final product on TV.....could've saw myself!!!!

Sahnish, be sure to give us a full report on Tribes.....wanted to go, but have to work!

Two-cents

[itokasniye]

I have it on tape somewhere.

Yeah, a guy did a naming ceremony and gave them all 'indian names' the only one i remember was 'two-feathers'. the rest were some hokie names too.(no offence to anyone actually named two feathers)i knew a guy who named himself two feathers tho.

So what were you wearing? I check it out when i find the tape.

[Two-cents1]

Tell you what I was wearing? What?! And ruin what shreds of my anonymity that remain? You must be mad..... :D .......(LOL!). Actually, I saw a little clip of myself in there a long time ago.....so I'm not going to tell you what I was weariing!

Two-cents

[Jacques]

Why are the indians my heroes?
Well after so many massacres,thefts of land ,racist attacks....they still hold their hand open in frienship.
In WW1 they went fighting in europe ...only to come back sometimes to no land at all[it had been stolen ]
And yet when the call came they went again to WW2 some winning the war with their native languages only to come back to a place where their children were beaten for talking that same language
In Korea,they were there,in Vietnam also [although some had some problems of conscious there]
And so on .So you see when some of them tell me that i cant dance or that i am not allowed in , I dont make a fuss i sit in the back willingly and grateful.
I must add that during 11 years in the reservation ,i was never cold,hungry,or without a roof .Every time i needed help ,i found some .Can an indian lost in the white man world say the same thing?

[Ayita16]

Originally posted by rainbow:
<STRONG>Two-Cents1 and Mr. Okla49er I have a few things I would like you to really think about with all due respect PLEASE.

1-Sorry but one bad apple does NOT ruin a whole bunch. I think its mean of you to say so. If you dont like what YOU see say something to that person, dont take it out on everyone else thank you.
2- Do you every stop and think how nice it is to see how someone loves your culture so much that they want to honor you by being with you and enjoying the dance with you??(unless of couse they are acting crazy and in that case by all means throw them out,phycially if need be.
3-We shouldnt look down on anyone else, remember no to long ago how we and our ancesders we looked down on, mistreaded, and disrepected. Respect rememeber!!
4-Lastly, Oh this card thing again.I hate it.
Lets think about if you do have even the smallest amt of "indain blood" but for whatever reason cant prove it hummm. Remember, sometimes our family we foced to move suddenly and the blood line is lost. Me being of mixed lines cant trace that far back, the paper trail stops Painfull to say. Nevertheless we of mixed blood are here and are here to stay. Papers, cards will not stop that.Not fair I cant dance. Remember,long ago we only had word of mouth, stories,right!! We didnt have cards then! IT IS WHAT IT IS. Lets try to face it. Hummmm.

If someone acts a fool, kick them out, I will help you. Other than that we should not judge.

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT.</STRONG>

Rainbow,
I totally agree with you i have a lot of friends even including myself who are mixed and can not trace very far back b/c my records were burned but i have enough native in me so i have a card. But honestly at a powwow i think it should not be carded all except if it is special ceremonies. but back in the day we did go by word of tongue why do we have to use the goverment cards that the whites gave us to run our ceremonies by saying who can participate and jumping to racial comments towards mixed people and also to whites who care enough about our heritage to dance. I think we should stop carding and ****
~Ayita~

:D

[Two-cents1]

FYI......

At the Kiowa Gourd Clan ceremonials, from which this discussion began, as well as at other ceremonies in Indian communities, WE DO NOT CARD. What is up with the card thing? The Indian communities know who is who, who belongs to that tribe, etc, and it is done maybe not by "word of mouth", but done according to family names, who your relations are, etc. Speaking only from my own experience, I have never been to a ceremony where they have carded....don't know that I would go to one that does...that just sounds strange.

Two-cents

[Two-cents1]

I don't believe that "membership cards" were ever distributed. What was done was a roster was created, listing all members from it's revival in 1955 to current day participants, as manner of keeping records for their society. It's not the same thing that Ayita and Rainbow are talking about, it's not a government issued card listing blood quantum or proof of Kiowa tribal enrollment, and also Gourd Clan members and those fortunate enough to participate in their ceremonials were/are not required to show any "card" in order to participate.

I still want to know where in any of the previous posts the subject of "carding" came up, because that is not the issue here, but it seems to keep turning up like a bad penny (aye! no pun intended!). :D

Two-cents

p.s. And if "carding" IS the issue here, then I'm going to go crawl back under that rock that I live under cuz then I've been clueless this whole time.

[Suzizila]

I was surprised to see that segment of Road Rules at the powwow, so I recorded it when they had a marathon of all the shows. If anyone has any questions about what happened, I can double check it. As for the naming ceremony, I remember some of the names....of course there was Two Feathers,but, then there were Brings the Sage, Red Corn Woman, and Rides the Horse(toward the end of that segment they turned Rides the Horse into something sexual) One thing I couldn't believe they did was to let that one guy go into the lodge with the fancy dance bustles on. That couldn't have been too good for the bustles, which of course, were borrowed. I'd think that since the dance clothing was borrowed, then they would have been more careful with it. They did it just for the glitz of MTV, but they should have been more respectful of others' things.(Talk about wanting to respect somebody.....geeeesh!)

[nativelohaus]

way off the subject here. . . but what ever happened to that ndn girl that was on one of the first road rules. i can't even remember her name.