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The True Origin Of Thanksgiving

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  • #31
    What I want to know is do we have any avatar's with a white pointy hood because we got some people that could use it.

    That would just be my humble opinion......
    Sahnish

    "There is nothing more dangerous than ignorance in action."

    Comment


    • #32
      "Kelly" speaking:

      OK, Here's my response to that: (Change pronouns as needed)

      First of all, his reference to the Sept. 11th tragedy is not relevant. That incident is different mainly because it's current. It's not what was done too many years ago for anyone to actually remember like the original Thanksgiving. Also, nothing has even been attempted as restitution yet from those guilty for the 9-11 events; nothing has been given to repay the damage: no manner of compensation, no special hunting privileges, no free homes or land (however low-valued or restricted), no casinos erected there to allow the victims to work their way out of the financial stress they will be in due to this event (forgive me for that last one, I just had to throw it in). None of this has occurred yet (or possibly will ever).

      Next, no psychologists were available at that time to help with the emotional well-being of anyone, Indian or otherwise, neither were they around at the time of white people's own oppression... But here's an example of what I mean by getting over it: the Irish Americans had no one to hold their hand and dry their tears when they were treated almost as badly as the Indians. No, they were not all but wiped out. No, they were not forced to leave their land and live in a manner foreign to them, per se. Were they segregated as poor, white undesirables? Yes. Were they forced to work for grossly insufficient pay (often tricked out of it for being none the wiser), and live in squalor? Yes. Were they abused psychologically and physically? Yes. Did they wallow in it for generation after generation? No. They got over it. They realized the system sucked and they worked through it and within it to ultimately put an Irish Catholic man in the White House. Does anyone deny that Irish people in America were treated badly? No. Did I deny that the Indians were/and in some cases still are treated badly? No. I'm simply saying that those who are still wallowing in it instead of proactively working toward a solution are a big part of the problem. No one forgets the past, but some leave it there. If you make it an excuse for your present and future, you will always be stuck in a holding pattern, crying over spilt milk. Eventually the milk will spoil, harden, crust, flake and leave a stain. Will you have stood there watching it happen, crying, until there became nothing you could do to ever fix it? Because that's where we are in this. Everyone forever stained by spilt milk; no one willing to lay a new floor to fix it.

      So, what sort of recompense can I, as a white person, give for the sins of my people? I can shout from the cyber (and actual) hilltops," Whites treated Indians - Blacks, Asians, Hispanics and Middle Easterners - like second class, sub-human beings. Some of my people still do. It was and is wrong. I, as a single representative of these people, am sorry for the sins of our fathers. I do not do what they did. I will not do what they have done. I will continue to teach our children that what was done was and is wrong. As I come to learn more and more of the Indian truths I will teach them along side white truths [and black truths and all other truths]." I have done and still do all these things and mean them with all sincerity, but somehow, it's still just not quite enough, is it? Again, I ask, What could be done to repay you as individuals and as a people for our transgressions? Any ideas?

      I put it to you, that when you write your "truths" making an entire race responsible- past present and future -for the indecent acts of INDIVIDUALS, you keep the flow of hatred, distrust and misunderstanding in full force. You label the trangressors "white" as if every single white person on the planet was to blame, then, now and forever. You label the victims "red" as if every single red person (or anyone other than white) on the planet was a victim, then, now and forever.

      Yes, I am defensive. I tire of the relentless white bashing that goes on in this country from individuals of every other race in the book, while they take full advantage of all the bounty that white culture has imagined, created and helped to produce. I also hate hearing it done by white individuals speaking of other races. I look at the cycle of one life, my own life, and expand it out a thousand generations. As many generations have had good times, bad times, and all sorts of times in between, as I, individually, have had. But, I do not focus on blaming any one group or circumstance for the cycles of my life. I just take the good with the bad and try to remain focused on my own goals throughout. I have lived in my car and bathed in the sinks of public restrooms. I have owned property, jewels and all the material items I could ever desire. When things were bad, I worked to improve them. When things were good, I enjoyed and was thankful for them. It was what it was; it is what it is. Whatever happened, happened. Whatever happens, happens. Whatever will happen, will happen. But I can not wallow in past "bad times". For instance, I will not hate or blame every person with an English-American name because some of them beat and mercilessly harrassed my grandfather with a German-American name during World War II, as he fought at their side. He does not wallow in the hurt, nor assign blame to the entire body of people who happen to have the same heritage as those who hurt him. Why do so many people do this? of EVERY race?

      In my heart I am ashamed of the evil acts of some of my people's ancestors. I am as proud of the decent acts of my people's ancestors. I have never been afraid to admit the worst or the best- in any race. I am not ignorant. I am not even the intelligent-ignorant person I was called. I am simply tired. Tired of all the bullsh*t. You, who live today, were not there when all those horrible things happened to your ancestors. They did not, however, happen to you. God willing, they will not. If you must bring their pain into your life today, use it to caution yourself against all unkindness and indecency, not just that of some whites. Be suspicious of all bad people, not just those particular whites which were bad. And be careful in discerning which are which.

      It was said that we all have to live with the consequences of all of our ancestor's actions. But why? Why do we have to give the past any more power than it's already had?

      I am grateful to live in a time when there is no (legal) slavery in America, no limited opportunities to become educated, vote, or buy property based solely on race, no lack of information or communication thereof. I will not say that some racial differences in opportunity don't still exist. But I will say that they can be overcome with some thought, planning, flexibility and effort - and most of all, desire to do so.

      Had I written the essay that started this all, I would have included some of those sentiments. I would have made it a more thoughtful piece rather than a straight, biased account of events that is based in nothing more than hearsay. And 400 year old hearsay at that. I would not have left it as, "White hurt red. White is bad. Red is to be pitied. White is to be disdained, " because that's how it came across to this white person. I do not doubt that everything in it was possibly true, but I am sick of it being shoved in the world's face so much, so often and so adamantly that no one ever gets past it, white, red, or otherwise.

      I realize in re-reading my first post that I was as guilty of race-labeling as the rest of us. I write this in full admission of that knowledge, realizing and believing it was wrong, and I apologize to any I've offended by that first writing.

      I hope this post has come across better and more indicative of my original meaning.



      Kelly

      Comment


      • #33
        I will probably regret posting this, but here goes.

        Another "White" perspective...

        After reading, I copied the essay that started this thread, and sent it out to many people that I frequently e-mail. I took it for what it was: facts and figures of several moments in the history of this country, and a worthwhile lesson in what happens when people forego all else in favor of belief. It was very sad to read. Sad to see how a group of Puritans, who believed so deeply in their god that they left England to escape persecution, only to turn around and do exactly what had been done to them when they interacted with the Indians. The Puritans were hypocrites and the Indians suffered for no reason. The essay was truthful, valuable in its effort to debunk mythology, *and* it stuck to pointing the finger where it belonged.

        To see this thread descend into the typical blanketing of white vs. red is saddening too. Once again I am stuck seeing both sides of the argument. Riverwind spoke out about the past, and many took it as a blanket statement about all whites! Why? He didn't say all whites did this. I could ask what makes some people jump to the defensive, but I think Lngfthr gave a pretty good answer.

        So why do I say I see both sides?

        I'm white, and of the German variety. This is my "nature." My family first set foot in the states in the mid 1800's (and strangely, that is when all branches of my family came to the USA). It would seem most were fleeing the persecution of the Baronage in Germany at the time, but I haven't been able to gather much information on that yet. My family had no connection to the first settlers, and maybe that's why I take no offence.

        I was also raised as a member of a Comanche family. This is my "nurture," the part that governs my responses and makes me who I am. I know of the hardships that my family faced in their past, and of the issues they face every day. I am always there when they need me because, blood or not, they are my family. I get angry and frustrated, but most of all, knowing their past and seeing what it does to them makes me sad. I can empathize, and I can't hold it against any Indian who harbors resentment for non-indians.

        On this board, I have been accused of being closed-minded, being of the whites only perspective, and I've been known to get a bit disgruntled when I, too, am covered under the "all whites are bad blanket." But, hey, life goes on.

        It comes down to semantics. You take what you will from comments made on this board. You will continue to argue because no two people will get the same thing from what is written.

        All in all, this post is probably pointless, but hey, I'm young. I'm still allowed to be silly and pointless sometimes.

        Thanks for reading my blather if you got this far.

        Comment


        • #34
          Hey, twocents1, don't even worry about it. I know exactly where you're coming from. Any given response depends on where we are at that day/time and with the issue in general. Everyone had a good response in that they spoke what they felt.

          Kelly, I feel like you do need to think a little harder about the past and how it affects the present. You also need to research a little more about race in America and the dynamics that have created situations that we have today. Learn about grieving and change and study group behavior and you will see that not is all as it seems. There are definite patterns and reasons for behavior far beyond the negative ones you attribute to people of color.

          If you are truly interested in learning, I would be happy to help.
          Not better. Not worse. Just different.

          Comment


          • #35
            While I had a few minutes, I wanted to clarify the comments regarding the WTC reference. In fact, the reference is very relevant.

            We could all agree that it is a traumatic event and that it has changed us all in some way or another (e.g. made us feel less safe, more hostile toward Muslims/Afghanistan/whatever, reminded us of being American, etc.). In the same way, Native American people went through some very traumatic events repeatedly throughout their lifetime (warfare, boarding schools, termination, land allotment, etc.) and that affected them in various ways.

            Now, today, we know that we must deal with trauma and so we send in psychologists from all over the U.S. to help the victims of the WTC disaster deal with the trauma and grieve. Certainly we didn't have modern-day psychologists back then (are you deliberately being obtuse?), but Native American people did have established ways of dealing with grief and trauma (ceremonies, spiritual advisors, community gatherings). Guess what? These ways were banned . So what's the result? Unhealthy coping, resentment, anger, depression and all the rest of that good stuff. In addition, these coping mechanisms affected the children and the grandchildren and on down the line. Don't we all learn how to behave from our families? Even if we don't always understand why we do things, don't we do them anyway (open presents Christmas Day instead of Christmas eve)?

            I hope this has clarified. I don't want to go into too much detail because it gets hard to read long posts. Little food for thought at a time is the way to go. I encourage you to really stop and think about it before responding (as opposed to reacting).
            Not better. Not worse. Just different.

            Comment


            • #36
              The past is just the past?

              Kelly used the Irish as an example. If the Irish are so forgiving, why is there an Irish Republican Army? Why are there bomblasts in England attributed to the IRA?

              Kelly - please explain.

              Comment


              • #37
                I was speaking of the Irish in America and how they were viewed/treated upon arrival. View my comments as they apply to America only.

                As to lngfthr's response...don't get me started on psychologists.

                Elvis has just left the building - for real. (save your applause till the door actually hits me in the ***, please...)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Kelly, please don't cop-out. Using that only in America thing don't work. Everyone has a past. The Irish will never forget their past.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Lngfthr:
                    You are being EXTREMELY unfair to Kelly. (This is Theresa "Tee" by the way). on her long post (above).
                    You were not listening to what you read in her post, clearly.
                    Read what is below:

                    Part of Kelly's Post:
                    "Next, no psychologists were available at that time to help with the emotional well-being of anyone, Indian or otherwise, neither were they around at the time of white people's own oppression..."

                    You responded on your (Lngfthr) post with this:
                    "Now, today, we know that we must deal with trauma and so we send in psychologists from all over the U.S. to help the victims of the WTC disaster deal with the trauma and grieve. Certainly we didn't have modern-day psychologists back then (are you deliberately being obtuse?),"

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      DONTWANNAARGUE, You need to change your name to WANNAARGUE??

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Quoting History--Get Your 'facts' straight

                        Before any of you start using the Irish, Irish-Americans, IRA, etc. as examples or for comparative purposes for God's sake get your history accurate! I appreciate Kelly was trying to make a point, but the statements made are as flawed as DontWannaArgues comment about the IRA. My adopted family are proud Irish-Americans. I researched my Da's genealogy for a number of years and became very familiar with the history and politics surrounding the Irish Diaspora. If we were going to get into a discussion about the Irish and comparing them to anybody it would be to the Palestinians, not Native Americans. So let's not compare apples and oranges.

                        For starters...
                        No, they were not all but wiped out. No, they were not forced to leave their land and live in a manner foreign to them, per se.
                        Whether they ended up on convict or coffin ships and transported off to Australia or America, the Irish were, indeed, forced to leave their land and live in a manner they were unaccustomed to..
                        The Famine can be viewed as a politically-motivated tool wielded by the English Crown to force the predominantly Catholic Ireland into submission and penury. If starvation didn't kill them, the resulting epidemics from the filthy conditions they were forced to live in completed the job begun by the Crown. We aren't talking 'hundreds' of fatalities here, we are talking of 'thousands'.


                        Kelly used the Irish as an example. If the Irish are so forgiving, why is there an Irish Republican Army? Why are there bomblasts in England attributed to the IRA?
                        This response isn't even germane to Kelly's comments. 'Forgiving'? I don't think that was her point. You move on, you don't necessarily forgive. In Northern Ireland, in places like Armagh and Derry, where cities have been divided like Berlin was in Germany, Catholic and Protestant alike try and survive side by side. Yet, on a daily basis, in these very enclaves, the past has not been forgotten. Neighbors kill neighbors. Children kill children. The latest is a rash of sexual assaults and murders on young Catholic girls--the innocents in this whole mess. The Easter Uprising was this same century, it was the culmination of years of Catholic oppression that gave birth to a number of organizations, including the Irish Republican Army, an underground branch of Sinn Fein. Think PLO and Hezbollah or Hamas... The Irish Republican Army is a symptom of a people exhausted from years of oppression. But it does not represent the people of Ireland and more pertinent to Kelly's comments which DWA is responding to, does not represent Irish-Americans.
                        I'll climb off my soapbox now. It just gripes me to see history distorted. It's bad enough as it is.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          What????

                          Tee and Kelly, what's with the psychologist comments?? They're not even the point!

                          Obviously, there are some people *ahem* leaving the building who would prefer to continue attributing victim mentalities to people of color while clinging to the concept of a superior white America to actually considering another perspective. Oh, well... win some, lose some.

                          And I'll tell you the overriding difference between Blacks, American Indians and the Irish. The Irish were WHITE.

                          That's all I got to say about that....hehehe
                          Not better. Not worse. Just different.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            NOT BETTER.....NOT WORSE.....JUST DIFFERENT !!
                            :p

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              "no casinos erected there <b>to allow the victims to work their way out</b> of the financial stress they will be in due to this event" :Shocked

                              "the Indians were/and in some cases still are <b>treated badly?"</b>
                              <i>treated badly?</i> :Eyebrows <i>"treated badly" is when a waiter is rude to you at a restaurant. </i>

                              "As I come to learn more and more of the Indian truths I will teach them along side white truths [and black truths and all other truths]"
                              <i>teach Indian truths alongside white truths? what does that even mean ?</i> :Thinking <i>Except that other peoples' truth must be somehow qualified and separated from the "white truth"? </i>

                              "when you write your "truths" making an entire race responsible"
                              <i>ah, I see, so there's the qualifier again, " " this time, just so you're clear your truth isn't really valid compared to hers</i>

                              "relentless white bashing that goes on in this country from individuals of every other race in the book, while they take full advantage of all the bounty that white culture has imagined, created and helped to produce."
                              :JawDrop :Angry :Thinking

                              "all those horrible things happened to your ancestors. They did not, however, happen to you."
                              <i>does this person actually live in the USA?</i>

                              "there is no (legal) slavery in America, no limited opportunities to become educated, vote, or buy property based solely on race, no lack of information or communication thereof"
                              <i>does this person actually live in the USA?</i>

                              "I would have made it a more thoughtful piece rather than a straight, biased account of events that is based in nothing more than hearsay. And 400 year old hearsay at that." <i>aaarrrgghhh</i> :Mad

                              "I hope this post has come across better and more indicative of my original meaning." <i>uh... yeah</i>

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I am not arguing. I wanted Kelly or someone ( thank you Spiritwoman) to elaborate on the past of the Irish. I do know at least one Irish man whose views of the past are not what the proud Brit wants to hear. Sound familiar?

                                Sorry to you of Irish descent for bringing up a subjects that obviously hurts. ( I didn't really - Kelly didn't finish what she had begun to say)

                                I am guilty of not researching. I only know about the Irish what is reported in the media and (shame on me) what I see in movies.

                                I wonder - do the Irish people know that much about the original people of North America. From movies? John Wayne etc.? If so, can you imagine what they think about the savagery of little ole us?

                                Comment

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