What Style Songs Do You Sing?

[Jacques]

Sorry,but what i learned about Kettle dance was that they are used as a healing ceremony.
Usually in the kettle there is a puppy whose meat is given to the sick.So I don't think that its appropriate to sing those out of context.There are plenty of other songs[intertribals,grass dance]that we use for just the fun of dancing.Intertribals have no words and are therefore easier to learn.

[Sheila]

Originally posted by Jacques:
[B]I sing LAKOTA TRADITIONAL SONGS.I love them because they tell the story of the Lakota people.]

Hello, my two sons are just learning to drum and sing. They are drumming for the OA dance team.They are looking for the words or vocables to a Lakota Kettle Dance song. Being boy scouts, they can not use a religious, or ceremonial song. It has to be a social song. Could any of you suggest a tape we could purchase or a web link that would have a social Kettle Song?
Thanks
Sheila

[rabbitbelly]

You could be right raptor. I couldn't say for sure what the record was about. All I know was what he told me as he put it on the turntable. And you're definately right aboout those Iroquios songs. Water drum stuff I mean. That's alot of fun dancing. Hard stuff too!

[raptor]

In my experience, most native singers sing in between the beats of the drum (for lack of any easier way of explaining it), including the Mohawks and the other Iroquois people, when singing their own songs. When singing foreign music, they have to learn it just like any hob. Those tapes from the old Pueblo friend were probably made for a performance group and probably bear no connection to indigenous Iroquois music which, depending on the song, can be as exciting and pleasing as any music you have ever heard. The recordings from Irocrafts will bear me out on this point, I think. Listen especially to the rabbit dance and round dance songs, which were brought to the reserves in only the last thirty or forty years or so from Oklahoma and from the Winnebago to get an idea what changes can occurr when music is transferred across cultural lines.

[OnTheRoad]

Rabbitbelly:
You may be correct. I know nothing of Mohawk songs so I can't explain that one. But the same drums we are discusssing probably know nothing of them either. Most sing Cozad songs or songs off of the more popular commercial tapes. They do the songs no justice. At all. There's a drum from New York called Siver Cloud. They sing southern songs offbeat. These guys are pretty good. I have come to the conclusion that the drums around here could care less and most are'nt willing to listen. There are exceptions to everything however.

OTR

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The expressed opinions above are not particularly the opinions of the author's friends, family, or employer.

[Beth]

The southern singers seem to forget that a lot of the old southern singers (men) sang as
high as the northern boys.

[rabbitbelly]

Ya know, I just remembered this. A while back, an older friend of mine played me an old vinyl copy of some Mohawk songs. This wasn't water drum, it was a big drum and he played it for me 'cause we were having this same discussion (on beat/off beat). They sounded EXACTLY like those eastern drums today. Slow beat, unenthusiastic singing and.....they sang on the beat! Don't know who they were or what the deal with it all was,but I do know the record was from the 50's or 60's and he grew up in the New York Indian scene(even though he was a pueblo guy) and told me this was Mohawk style. I don't know, but I guess it's been around for a while anyway!

[OnTheRoad]

Well Rabbitbelly, I will do CEM a favor by criticizing the drums I have heard. It seems to me that if you listen to a tape, you can notice the singers singing offbeat. I did when I first started. I guess it came naturally. I have a feeling that the only source for their information is commercial tapes. Bad idea. Very few drums around here have traveled anywhere out of their homestate to go to a powwow. Very few quality powwows in their homestate mind you. If they do, they choose one that has poor drums. The sorry part of it is that these same clowns make people come to the conclusion that all drums in the southeast suck. It's not the case.

OTR

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The expressed opinions above are not particularly the opinions of the author's friends, family, or employer.

[CEM]

I've never heard of singing on the beat as being the right way to sing. I don't want to criticize a drum group that I've never listened to.

[rabbitbelly]

In another topic, I can't remember where, the subject of singing on/off the beat came up. I wanted to ask what the deal is with that as I noticed alot of drums in the east do sing on the beat. I always assumed they did it intentionally or it wouldn't be so common. Not knowing anything about southern style, I thought maybe that's what they were doing. Was I right in giving them the benefit of the doubt or is it really just 'cause they don't know any better? All I was sure of was that dancing to a drum that sang on the beat was really lame compared to the ones who sang off the beat. They seemed to lack the energy of the latter.

[rabbitbelly]

Wow, I would never have expected to hear you say that those mickey mouse songs are acceptable. You being so traditional and pure. That's a major intrusion from the white world on the sanctity of the native culture. Or was Walt part Indian? Well wahtever

One of the reserves I work in we started a drum group for the youth. It has recently reveived a name from an elder. The songs I created all reflect the history and traditions of the people of Xeni Gwet'In(Nemiah Valley Indian band). Xeni Gwet'In is a Chilcotin band where Chilcotin is spoken 75% of the time. Chilcotin and Navajo are almost identical languages. Cree and Chilcotin are about as simialar as my opinions and rabbitbelly's!!!

To date we have created 15 songs which tell of legends of two sacred mountains, sacred areas, crow hop, eagle songs, honor songs, foot slide, sneak up, round dance and intertribals.

These youth have never sang at a gathering or pow-wow. We will sing a few time this summer in the area at smaller pow-wows.
Personally I do not sing other drums songs. Fortunately I cna travel to hear many greta Cree, Blackfoot and Nakoda drums in the praires. I do listen to them alot, but I enjoy listening to them then imitating them.
I have the rite to make and give songs, most which are 99% Cree and word songs.

My family and myself have the rites to well over 150+ pow-wow, round dance, tea dance, sun dance, chiken dance, ghost dance, horse dance and sweat lodge songs. Most of them are ceremonial, but many have different versions of a song.

One song we sing,"Okisiko Iskwew" (Holy Woman)is sang in church, sweat lodge, sun dances, round dances and in pow-wow. I have been given many songs as well, but I make up so many, I use most of those. Often I ask if the songs that come to me are from our people. Most of the time they are very old songs that have returned through myself. I am very grateful.

Conmcerning Mighty Mouse, I see and hear a lot stupider things at pow-wows and in forums like this, so why not. It makes kids happy and I have never heard any tiny tot or their parent complain.

I have even started translating my songs into other Indian languages to help Shuswap and Chilcotin people in seats and ceremonies. I do not sing in English as to me this is disrespectful and goes against the purpose of Indian songs. My ancestors spoke Indian languages and I repsect them by singing songs earned and given in the appropriate manner.

Kahkakew

[Jacques]

I sing LAKOTA TRADITIONAL SONGS.I love them because they tell the story of the Lakota people.What kind of story do those 'Mickey Mouse songs "tell?
Some people say that they are for the kids?
But there are a lot of traditional songs for the kids without having to go get the Stupid Mouse!What message is there for the kids?

[OnTheRoad]

Now, I know this is a Northern Singing forum, but these kind of subjects don't get tackled in the Southern singing forum.
I think these songs are alright. Theyre kinda fun to listen to. However, I don't like to sing them. I just don't get into them like I do other types of songs. My buddy's sister insists that we sing the Flinstones song every time she shows up to our practice. Her daughters get a kick out of it, so it's worth the effort. There's a Kiowa song that I'd rather sing for the little ones. If I recall correctly, the song speaks of how good it is to see the young people dancing.
Raptor, I have wondered for some time how these songs came about. Could you shed some light on this for us? It might be able to ease some peoples minds. Perhaps not.

OTR

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The expressed opinions above are not particularly the opinions of the author's friends, family, or employer.

[SingerMD]

First let me state that I sing southern (mainly Kiowa and Ponca). But I have to put my own 2 cents in about those kids’ songs.

Yes, those songs are all right for the younger dancers (5 and younger) but not all the time. The problem I have seen is that many drum groups only knows one of those songs and sings it over and over again just for the sake a singing a "Kids" song. However, I believe that if you are going to do an exhibition dance with the young boys/girls (age 6 and up) they should have a normal song. Just my opinion.

"I just don't understand what is so bad about them.....is it ok for BlackLodge to keep writing the veteran songs with english words....i mean if u dislike there kids songs how od u feel about those....what about the two step songs by Eyabay or Northern Cree or any other group with english words in round dance or rabbit dance songs...."

On your above comment, let me just say that your are comparing apples to oranges to grapefruit here. How can you compare Veteran songs with english words to those kid or two-step songs? I know that there are lot of Northern Veteran songs with english words so for simplicity lets just pick one that says World War I or World War II. Will you please inform all of use what the Sioux word (or word from any other language) for those war were prior to 1900 - you can't now can you . Yes, I know that it 2000 not 1900, but I’m just trying to make a point. If you listen to the Veteran Songs CD that came out a few years back you’ll hear, if I remember correctly, old recording with English words in them – so its not just a new thing and not just limited to Black Lodge’s veteran songs.

Now onto the two-step songs: once again like the kids’ songs these songs can nowadays be classified as social not specialty songs (e.g. Veteran, Memorial or Prayer Songs). So I really don’t have a problem with the english lyrics in them.

As a side note, most of the common southern round dance songs with english lyrics were created from old “War Expeditions Songs”; and yes, there was a controversy over them back some 20 plus years ago, so we won’t rehash it here. The same might hold true for northern songs, but I’ll pass that on to those who are more knowledgeable with northern music. All I’m going to say is that during the round dance the songs are sung without the english lyrics but are sometimes sung with them during the two-step.

Yes, your right in that some new round dance song with english lyrics are popular for a year or so but eventually go the way of most songs and are forgotten, until someone dust them off the shelf so to speak. As for those kid songs our drum group opps not to sing them.

All I’m trying to say is that it’s not wise to make such a general reference across the board to all songs with english lyrics. Just my humble opinion.

[This message has been edited by SingerMD (edited May 16, 2000).]